The Art of Manliness Podcast Episode #14: Men to Boys and the Making of Modern Immaturity

by Brett on January 12, 2010 · 38 comments

in Podcast

Welcome back to the Art of Manliness Podcast! In this week’s episode we interview Dr. Gary Cross, author of the book Men to Boys:The Making of Modern Immaturity. We discuss the history behind the trend of men putting off responsibilities, like family and career, and instead indulging in pastimes and consumer goods that are commonly associated with teenagers.

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{ 37 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Richard | RichardShelmerdine.com January 12, 2010 at 4:27 am

I’ve bookmarked it for later. Still loving the podcasts you guys make. The intro cracks me up too. It’s so manly.

2 Waltman January 12, 2010 at 8:52 am

Contrary to the author’s belief, it is possible to “grow up” and contribute to society without getting married and having children. In fact, given the popularized belief that all men are goofball screwups like you see on sitcoms, it’s small wonder that men are choosing more and more to take themselves and go live womanless.

Personally I lucked out and married a woman whose father is a man, so I am free (expected!) to act like a man. Yeah, I play video games. It’s the pay off for bringing home the bacon and having the foresight and leadership skills to guide my family. AOM: If you really want to help people, you can start articles on how to find a good wife, if that’s what someone really wants. Here’s a hint: it starts with HER father.

To the author and those who think this is some seminal call to action for GenX: Pigeonholing us into a “Leave it to Beaver” era definition of manhood is part of what led the generation from the 60s and 70s to rebel so hard. Every time I think about how much “better” it was back then, I turn on my HD TV and check my stocks on my iPhone. Join us in the 21st century. There’s something awesome for everyone.

3 Joseph Lenze January 12, 2010 at 9:10 am

Good podcast. I work for Penn State too. Cool!

4 Rodolfo January 12, 2010 at 10:33 am

I agree with Waltman.
The whole “family with children” thing is overrated.
If you want children, that’s fine. Don’t expect everyone to want the same.
Don’t expect the rest of us to subsidize your children either.

5 Jake January 12, 2010 at 12:02 pm

I haven’t listened to the podcast so I can’t comment on that but I would like to express my disagreement with Waltman and Rodolfo.

I do not believe that you have to get married or have children to become a man, but I do believe that those stages of life help some boys become men. A decision to marry is a decision for selflessness, for maturity. You may get married because she’s hot and way out of your league but you will only stay married if you become a man and accept your responsibilities. Children push this selflessness even further. At least you wife can still serve your selfish wants. You can see this in Waltman’s post: I play video games because that’s what I deserve…my HDTV, my stocks, my iPhone. The first person possessive pronoun goes when children come. Your wife may let you sleep late on Saturday, your children will not. It is true: “Any boy can have a child; it takes a man to be a father.”

There’s more to growing up than contributing to society and there’s more to contributing to society than paying taxes.

6 Steven Copley January 12, 2010 at 1:38 pm

I like Fedora’s; but I get his point.

I think its one of the most serious issues affecting our society and I’m thankful for organizations like this for fighting it. Great podcast.

7 Octane January 12, 2010 at 1:43 pm

Relevant postings; see title.

8 Paul January 12, 2010 at 3:04 pm

Great podcast. I thought Dr. Cross was very fair and even-handed in his evaluation of how the world has changed, recognizing that does take a lot longer to get settled in a career than it used to, and that the culture is driving a lot of this immaturity. He avoided the trap of sounding like a cranky old curmudgeon, which is how many authors of similar “kids these days” polemics tend to sound. And his assessment that our culture undervalues age and overvalues youth is spot on.

9 Chris January 12, 2010 at 3:27 pm

I’m not so sure about this idea, really. I will say that it is hard to know what being a man really is until you are a father. I think Jake makes a good point. Hell, even teenagers talk about getting married to their first love, but would they have what it takes to make it? Marriage is one of, if not the greatest challenges, yet reaps the greatest rewards.

When I met my wife, it was magic. Sparks flew. I knew I would marry her in the first week of us dating, and nothing over the next seven months told me I was wrong. Hell, even a month into our marriage things went well, but things just have a way of getting screwed up for some reason. Although I thought I was doing the right things (as did she) all the time, it turns out that we were both doing some damage to the relationship without intending it or knowing it. Getting back to a place of happiness, then, involves solving all of your problems and, most importantly, fixing yourself so that you’re protecting her from your bad tendencies. Even if you didn’t realize they were bad in the first place.

It’s hard, but our love is much stronger now than it ever was. Only a man with fortitude and tenacity can make it through that kind of hell, and come out the other side to discover what all the fuss is really about.

And then there’s our son. He’s a great kid, and we love him, but he can also be such a hand full. As if marriage weren’t complicated enough, sharing parenting responsibilities, and trying to resolve the differences between your parenting styles, that can make everything more complicated. Not only will our son not let us sleep in (though we take turns letting each other sleep in), but in the last few weeks he’s been waking up at 4 AM again, and demands to sleep with his mom. You just never know what obstacle will get thrown at you next.

So I can understand that not everyone wants a family life, and I think that should be acceptable. I don’t think we should go back to a society that expects people to do a certain thing. I DO think it would be good to have a society that expects you to do something positive with your life, rather than make it socially acceptable for you to waste it.

But when a man can not just survive, but thrive in a family life, I think it really takes him to an entirely different league. I know I have grown considerably and have become a much better man both within my family, and for everything else that I’m involved in as well, all thanks to those challenges. You just don’t get those constant growth opportunities if you’re single and/or in “regular” relationships. Hell, even my friend who shares a kid and a home with a girlfriend… until he marries her, he will still not face the kinds of challenges that I and my other married friends have. Challenges abound, sure, but not quite as many as what we’ve had with the additional challenge of marriage.

However, I will say this. One of my teachers… Well, he’s in his 50′s or 60′s. He is a hard worker, and has high expectations for those around him, and mostly for himself. He was married once, and at the time he was making about $150,000 a year as a professional tuba player. This also meant that he worked constantly. Many men would see this as positive for the family, but that’s simply not how you keep a family happy. Being a family man today is far more complex and, I think, more challenging than it was 50 years ago. You must not only be a provider, but also give emotional support and fulfillment (something that wasn’t necessarily expected in past generations). He continued to choose his career and the money over his wife, and guess what? She left him. To this day he still can’t understand why she didn’t support him making all of that money. I am in my mid-twenties, and this man is more than double my age.

And he has a classic manly mustache.

But would he be considered a great man? No. Because while he can go around pompously proclaiming that he’s “independently wealthy”, he is also alone at night due to his failure as a husband. There is still hope for him, though. After a string of relationships it looks like he’s found a girlfriend he likes. He will probably never marry her, though, because he won’t want to risk losing his wealth.

My grandfather, on the other hand, is a real man. His career was as a plumber, and he eventually started his own company. His wife was a liberal who was on the front lines of women’s rights. She has a college degree and eventually held a high ranking position with the company she worked for. As a kid I remember her office – it was HUGE. Together they supported several daughters, including one who was adopted, and most of them turned out pretty well. They now own a trailer park together. She takes care of the paper work, and he does the labor. Even in his ailing days he is considered by many to be a great man with a great sense of humor, a hard worker, and a great husband and father. They were married for so long that they could no longer wear their wedding bands due to their arthritis making it too painful. My wife and I have been honored to wear their rings instead.

So while I think men (and women) should have the option to do what they want with their life, let’s not pretend that you have to live the “Leave it to Beaver” life style to be considered a family man. And I think regardless of how much men mature, they will probably never mature to the level of men in marriages with children. It just takes something that you have to dig really deep to find, and most men can only be challenged to reach that level through the trials of marriage and fatherhood. Don’t get me wrong, I’m continuing to grow, but I can already see the difference it has made in me after just a couple of years. Hell I’ve bumped into several older men during brainstorming or study sessions at IHOP or Denny’s, and after having conversations with them they tend to have a hard time believing I’m not at least in my thirties. It just hard to understand unless you’ve experienced it. Just don’t knock it until you’ve been there, you know?

Wow, that was quite a rant… Sorry about that. No offense intended to any of the posters of previous comments.

10 corey January 12, 2010 at 3:59 pm

Best pod cast yet.
It seems people have difficulty achieving the middle ground. Being a suburban man locked into a job he hates with a wife he can’t stand and yearning for youth seems to be the other extreme of 35 year old hipsters playing didgeball, fixie polo, and closing the bar everynight. I have found it’s not what you do for a living but more what you do with your time off.

11 Patrick January 12, 2010 at 4:52 pm

It’s the first podcast I have listened to – I finally decided to do it – and I must say it’s great and addresses an important problem. All the more important for me that I too am afraid of adulthood due to all the reasons mentioned in the interview.

Therefore I have a favour to ask of you: we already know the down sides of becoming mature, but what are the advantages? What is it that mature man can do that is attractive enough to get rid of the “eternal boy” way of living? Please list your ideas and reasons, I thank you all in advance.

12 Jay January 12, 2010 at 4:53 pm

Will listen to podcast later.

@ Waltman: I agree – one doesn’t need a wife to contribute. Also, don’t get married with the wrong woman to become a ‘man’… Good suggestion about choosing women/wives wisely – would be interesting if AOM could look into that.
David Shade has a program: ‘Select women wisely’ (I don’t own it, so this is not a plug).

13 Rodolfo January 12, 2010 at 4:55 pm

In turn, I respectfully disagree with Walt.

As a 53 year old man I’ve seen too many men with children that assume they have shown the world how manly they are by fathering a great deal of children.
I have none. Nada. Zero. Zilch.

Does that make me any less manly? (That, of course, is a rhetorical question.)

I do, however, agree with Corey completely. What you do with your time off can define you as a person. Do you volunteer to assist others, or do you play pool?

Again, these are just my opinions. I have no desire to provoke.

14 Thomas Palmer January 12, 2010 at 6:52 pm

You don’t need children to be a man (duh) but it IS something that brings about maturity. Also, it IS a general defining characteristic of men.

15 George Rosebush January 13, 2010 at 2:28 am

The world is overpopulated, there is no need for everyone to father children, and certainly no rush for it either. While it has historically been viewed as a defining characteristic of a man to rather children by society at large, and I am not doubting that surviving those challenges builds character, maybe it’s just not as necessary as it once was. The stats prove that any species that multiplies at an exponential rate will become extinct.

Certainly any challenge will harden a man, build his character, but I think we should look for our own ways of challenging ourselves, instead of doing what’s socially considered “right.” Be your own man, if it’s not your desire to have children, no one can force you to, and let them call you immature all they want, to a strong man it should have no effect.

16 Marc Neilsen January 13, 2010 at 1:00 pm

George Rosebush,

Sorry, but that classic “overpopulation” argument has been around since before the Industrial Revolution. Getting married and starting a family is something which every man should eventually enjoy during his life, and despite the scaremongering over high population, mankind will always find a way to facilitate growth.

I agree with a previous poster, I have a difficult time considering someone a “man” if he has no experience as a husband/father. While I agree that many of the expectations of yesteryear are not suitable for this day and age, being a husband and father will never be outdated. To me, a defining characteristic of a man is the ability to sacrifice for others. We have seen men throughout time prove their mettle by serving their community and country, and more importantly, millions of men have sacrificed their own wants and needs in order to maintain a healthy and happy family. When we speak of responsibility and sacrifice, nothing can quite compare to the role of a husband and father. Unfortunately, it seems to me that a growing number of young men would rather neglect such a calling in exchange for a more selfish life of menial hobbies, fickle passions, and boyhood fantasy. Now please don’t misunderstand, I’m not saying that without marriage a man is automatically guilty of selfishness and immaturity. Instead, I am stating that marriage and the rearing of children are powerful tools in defining a man’s character, and when done properly, demonstrate the true value of a “good man.”

I don’t believe young men should attempt marriage without the proper degree of maturity and commitment. If a man doesn’t think he can rise to the occasion, then he probably shouldn’t give marriage a try. Yet as a married man, I can say that life is most certainly more meaningful when you have someone to share it with.

17 Dennard January 13, 2010 at 6:57 pm

Good podcast and another thumbs up to Waltman’s post. I would love to be married right now, but there are definite benefits to being single- being free of a female/taming influence.

18 Alan January 13, 2010 at 7:17 pm

You’ll never live up to the fullness of your manhood if you don’t have children. Period. Having children encompasses many qualtiies of a real man:

Legacy: A man who leaves this earth without some kind of legacy is a ghost of a man. There are other ways to make a legacy, it’s true, but none are as powerful as children.

Gratitude: Someone was unselfishness enough to give you life-to give you a chance to enjoy many decades of the world’s pleasures. All you enjoy in this life you owe to your parents’ willingness to birth you. A man shows his true gratitude by giving that chance to someone else. Only a selfish man would love the life he was given, and yet be the one to break the chain, saying “It was great for me, but it ends here.”

Virility: We feel ourselves so far removed from the animal kingdom, that we forget that we are animals too-the products of evolution. And like animals, the whole purpose of our being is to perpetuate our kind. The way we are made as men, our antatomy, our hormones, are designed to get us to reproduce. When we fail to do so, we never fulfill the measure of our creation. It’s like owning a Corvette and never taking it for a drive. You’ll always miss out on one of the fundamental experiences of being human. A whole range of experiences, satisfactions, and emotions will be forever shut to you. It doesn’t matter how much you travel, or how great of a job you get, you’ll never experience this fundamental part of being human. There will always be a part of yourself entirely unused. If you haven’t had kids, you simply will never understand what I’m saying, and that’s really the whole point.

19 George Rosebush January 14, 2010 at 5:08 pm

“Sorry, but that classic “overpopulation” argument has been around since before the Industrial Revolution.”

How long ago was that? Not a very long time on the evolutionary scale of time, and how much has the population grown since then? That fact that this argument has been around since then only serves to prove my point further.

“And like animals, the whole purpose of our being is to perpetuate our kind.”

Yeah, unfortunately, natural selection has been taken out of the picture, as nearly anyone can have children, and the weak, unattractive, and unintelligent are not weeded out, which is not good for the species. So, just because you can have children, does not mean it’s good for our species.

To the argument about selfishness: Who is more selfish, the guy who wants to see his genes be added to the gene pool, when it’s completely unnecessary, or the one who recognizes there is no need. This is especially true of men who are not in a stable enough position to father children. Is someone who has children at 18, but struggles to feed his many children more of a man than someone who waits until a later, more stable stage in life?

There are many more factors that go into this decision, having children alone does not make anything more of you, especially when it’s been proven that having children does not make you happier. I grew up in an environment where many “men” father children at a very young age, it’s not an appealing lifestyle, for him or his children. Being able to properly raise a family requires much more than simply having children.

I think you all are simplifying this way too much, it’s not age alone that determines when you should have children, it’s your stage in life, and the fact is that to get to the proper stage is much more difficult and takes much more time than “back in your day”.

If you don’t see the signs of overpopulation all around you, you must be jaded.

20 Charlie January 15, 2010 at 10:28 am

I agree with Waltman and would only add that a) there’s room in a man’s life for altruism AND recreation and b) since the single defining characteristic that distinguishes humanity from the other great apes is our mastery of technology (which, BTW, includes everything from a hammer and hatchet to an iPhone and Xbox), then men must be masters of technology. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that because somebody doesn’t volunteer all of his free time to helping people and won’t live with ’50s era technology that makes him unmanly. In fact, I think that a man who is proficient with technology will be a better father (he’ll know what his kids are up to and how to protect them from bad influences in games, the internet, etc.) and one who takes at least some of his free time to care for himself (with R&R) will be in far better shape to help others.

21 Charlie January 15, 2010 at 10:36 am

@George Rosebush: That’s right on. One of the most dangerous things we’ve done to humanity is get rid of natural selection. We should be trying to make humanity better, stronger, smarter, etc. and instead, we’re virtually ensuring our own destruction. Either breed to be better or don’t breed at all – that’s the best service you can do your fellow man.

22 Jeff Wong January 15, 2010 at 8:53 pm

I wouldn’t treat his longing for the past as a prescription for our times.

His core complaint that young people chose to be responsible for nothing by over-indulging in material self pleasures and carrying themselves. Getting married, having children, and buying a house might as least for some of them to be responsible for something other than themselves. There is something wrong with a generation of young men who are obsessed with video games, “play”, and materialism. Too much money and too much freedom to lead to a meaningless life.

I didn’t read his suggestions as straight-jackets. We know all too well our careers will look very different than our fathers and we must take into account women’s aspirations for self-efficacy. Procreation is one way to be responsible for some “Other”. In fact, procreation is a false silver bullet to the problem he is describing. One can become demonstrate maturity and find opportunities to grow without family and home (though there may be rewards to parenthood some of us will never know).

Marriage and children come with huge risks; the greatest risk of all is to think that being a parent is all that you need to give to humanity. No, one can be an entrepreneur or to be a manager and build something truly valuable to society. As a business leader, one adopts the responsibility of one’s subordinates. To design the work to be meaningful to them, to help them grow, to be responsible to both their families as well as the owners of the business and society.

Aung San Suu Kyi’s father (Aung San) seems like an potentially interesting model for manliness. I don’t know the details of his life, but he founded a nation and gave birth to a daughter who is worthy of our admiration today. Did he raise her in life or only in death? One wonders….

23 George Rosebush January 16, 2010 at 2:16 am

Wow, Jeff Wong, you put what I was trying to say so eloquently, you really said it all. To reiterate his most important point, raising a family should not be used as a solution to unhappiness, and is definitely not the end all be all of your contribution to the world, but that doesn’t give room for complacency or utter lack of purpose.

One only needs to think of MLK and the women’s movements to be reminded that these weren’t the best times if you weren’t a white male, do we really need to learn from the ideals of those times?

24 Brett McKay January 16, 2010 at 2:12 pm

“One only needs to think of MLK and the women’s movements to be reminded that these weren’t the best times if you weren’t a white male, do we really need to learn from the ideals of those times?”

There’s a failure in logic here-just because a period had problems in some areas, doesn’t mean we can’t learn something from areas that that may have done better. Applying that same standard, someone could say that we can’t learn from MLK’s ideals on civil rights because he was also an adulterer. A man should be able to discern the bad and learn from the good.

25 Charlie January 18, 2010 at 5:42 pm

@ Jeff & George: Yeah, I agree that the overall message should really be one of moderation. IOW, first priority should always be given to responsibilities and obligations followed by charity work. Last of all should come recreation and this should be done with some time spent on traditional pursuits and some on more modern ones. This all ties into wisdom and self-discipline – having the wisdom to say “I should put this video game down and do X, Y, and Z” and having the self-discipline to do it.

@Brett: This is an excellent point. I’d love to see an article or series on the subject of developing discernment. My grandfather always told me to pick the things that work and throw out the things that down, and this is part of it, too. A lot of iconic men had troubled or controversial personal lives – the Duke, Clint Eastwood, JFK – but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t contribute a lot of positive things that we can learn from.

26 George Rosebush January 19, 2010 at 1:18 am

Discerning from good and bad? My whole point was that I believe that this is not something good to learn from, and yeah I provided a pretty extreme example to make that clear. There’s no point in a logical argument, I didn’t like what this guy was saying, if anyone else does, I can’t convince them otherwise.

27 Steve B January 19, 2010 at 9:51 am

You could write volumes about what’s wrong with today’s American male. You could write volumes more about the causes of these male failings; an education system that seems to give girls an advantage, pop culture that increasingly portrays men as clowns and buffoons, the absence of genuine male role models in many guys’ lives.
One comment from Dr. Cross that struck a chord with me was the when he said that in the 1950s, television gave us “Father Knows Best” while today we have “Two and a Half Men.” Robert Young as Jim Anderson and Hugh Beaumont as Ward Cleaver were strong, responsible, family men. Charlie Sheen as the hedonistic Charlie Harper and Jon Cryer as his brother, the well-meaning, but helpless Dr. Jerome Harper, paint a much different portrait of contemporary men.
My only question: Does Two and a Half Men (and other shows which portray men as being stuck in perpetual adolescence) contribute to the immaturity of young men or is it simply a reflection of a condition that already exists?

28 Dascamel January 23, 2010 at 2:09 pm

I feel that we are leaving two points out of this conversation, Life expectancy and jobs/cost of living.

Life expectancy has had the biggest impact on the role of a man in the family than any other factor in the last 100 years. My grandfather’s dad died at the age of 40, my grandfather was the man of the family. This forced my father, the oldest, to take a bigger role in the home since my grandfather was not around. My father is now 50 and my grandfather is still alive, this is really the first time in history when this is the normal situation. Heck I have four children so we have 4 generations of my family alive right now, how many times before this time period has this happened? Really if my grandfather can hold out for 10 years or so my two oldest daughters will be in their late 20′s so we could possibly have 5 generations together. This has enormous effects on fathers and sons, I am not saying I want my grandfather and father to die but in the past this happened much sooner and this really changed what a mans position in the family(cue godfather music).

One of the side effects of this is the job situation in general. As the general population is getting older less good jobs are available to the younger population. The TV show Mad Men is a perfect comparison, half of the upper management guys are in their 20′s. This is unheard of today. Also the average number of jobs I will have in my lifetime is around 15. 15 different jobs, 15 different companies. My grandfather worked for one company, my father is at his third company. I am at job number 7 with just as many companies. But the crazy thing is I have two houses, my wife and I each have our own car and a family van. My kids don’t want for anything and between my wife and I we make less than 75,000 a year. I talk with my father about this and we are just dumbfounded that I am doing this.

My wife and I have talked about this dumbing down of men in our society and we can’t figure it out. I ultimately feel the leave it to beaver life the last couple of generations have grown up idolizing is now gone, and this has lead to a confusion for men right now. When we look at Maslow’s Hierarchy, we have taken care of the first two steps for sure, but we are somewhere between steps 3 and 4.

29 Finnian January 23, 2010 at 4:49 pm

“There’s no point in a logical argument, I didn’t like what this guy was saying, if anyone else does, I can’t convince them otherwise.”

It seems to me that there is a huge insight into today’s mindset in Mr. Rosebush’s comment. Does anyone think anymore? Mr. Rosebush claims that he “cannot convince” anyone who thinks differently than he does and sees “no point in a logical argument” because he has no logical thoughts about the author’s arguments. He simply “didn’t like what this guy was saying.” Mr. Rosebush’s reaction is based on pure emotion, that gut reaction that could be nothing more than indigestion or a sinking feeling that perhaps some small element of truth–perhaps ugly, perhaps un-PC–is staring him right in the face.

I’m all for disagreement and debate, but let’s at least do so logically and gentlemanly. A good place to start would be to take our hearts off of our sleeves, put on our thinking caps, and actually listen to what others have to say.

“Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.”
–Winston Churchill

30 853 OKG January 25, 2010 at 11:41 pm

As a member of the generation that was in college in the late 60s/early 70s, let me say that Waltman is correct in saying that we were rebelling against being “pigeonholed” into a Leave It to Beaver model of manhood – because that model included responsibility, self control, recognizing one’s obligations to others, respect and a number of other virtues that we self-righteous, immature little twerps wouldn’t or couldn’t accept.

The existence of HDTVs and the ability to track stocks on an iPhone proves that today is technologically “better” than the 50s, but is irrelevant to the question of whether today’s men are less mature.

31 George Rosebush January 28, 2010 at 4:53 am

“Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.”

I think that’s exactly what I did. I don’t think there was any lack of thinking on my part, or too much emotion. To think that what I said represents a whole generation of people is, well, an opinion isn’t it?

Instead of nitpicking my phrasing, how about you respond to some of the other well made arguments (Steve B, Descamel, Jeff Wong)? If you want to argue logically, I think you’re guilty of ad hominem (or straw man), because you’re clearly not responding to many of the counterpoints made by me and others, hence me giving this up.

What I meant by “I can’t convince them otherwise” was that if someone BELIEVES what he’s saying to be true, I can’t change beliefs with logic. There I’m done with this(sitting down).

32 Finnian January 28, 2010 at 8:14 am

@George Rosebush-

“What I meant by “I can’t convince them otherwise” was that if someone BELIEVES what he’s saying to be true, I can’t change beliefs with logic.”

Why not? A thinking person should always be able to be convinced, should always be open to changing his or her beliefs when presented with a logical argument. That is the very basis of argumentation. We start with different ideas, different beliefs, and we go about presenting our respective cases. For argumentation to be useful, both sides have to be willing to actually listen and have to be open to being convinced. If either side or both are unable or unwilling to do that, the whole exercise is futile.

“To think that what I said represents a whole generation of people is, well, an opinion isn’t it?”

Yes, but that is not what I said. At least, that is not what I meant. I was trying to point out (perhaps poorly) that perhaps there was a clue in your comment as to why in today’s world we seem to be unable to reach any agreements. Everyone has his or her beliefs, and they are deeply held and unshakable. No matter how logical the argument many people seem unwilling or unable to be convinced to change their beliefs. I wonder why? I suspect it is because many people do not really think anymore. At least, they do not think at a level that forces them to change their habits and actions.

“Instead of nitpicking my phrasing, how about you respond to some of the other well made arguments (Steve B, Descamel, Jeff Wong)?”

I do not think I was nitpicking your phrasing. Brett pointed out what he saw as a failure in your logic, and you responded, “There’s no point in a logical argument, I didn’t like what this guy was saying.” I don’t know what else to add here. Your response was an emotional one. Your reason for disagreeing was based on “like,” not logical problems with his position. I found it interesting and sought to point it out because I thought it was insightful. No attack on your character intended, and I apologize if I offended you.

Now it is my turn to sit down.

33 JaimeInTexas May 11, 2010 at 12:53 pm

I am about to listen to the podcast but, first, I read the comments.

Being a husband AND a father may not be the sine qua non of maturity but it is miles ahead in the training. I am a father of 4, in a single income home. If you do not have children you do not know what sacrifice is, unless, you have chosen a life where you sacrifice, give up things, for others. The key is sacrifice. Truly, where your choice requires depriving yourself of something of value to you for the benefit of another. That is maturity!

34 Core May 23, 2010 at 12:20 pm

I just wanted to mention something important… (I did not read through all these post…) But I did listen to the entire podcast.

During 1971 or 1974, Gold was unlinked from the dollar. So inflation went up by huge amounts. So, where as you could save money, because it was actually money at that time, and did not lose its value… it turned into currency, basically IOU’s and debt… and so its a lot harder to catch up today. That’s the truth. And then you count the damned higher taxes… its ridiculous.

35 Kelly July 12, 2010 at 12:10 am

My father is definitely the hard-working sacrifice-for-the family type of man. My husband is a dream chaser, and a fun-seeker. The kind some may pin with the peter-pan complex. I think both generations have their strengths and differences, but as a woman, I often wonder how things would be different for myself if my husband were more like my father.
I’m very happy and content in my marriage, but I think it is a different happy and content than what my mother feels in her marriage.

36 Christopher Massey September 12, 2013 at 3:23 pm

Okay, so I’ve enjoyed the podcast up to this point. I have liked the bits of wisdom here and there that I can take, but in this one I was a little offended toward the end.

I am 28, I love videogames. I’ve had a passion for videogames since I was little and have enjoyed playing them over the years and still get excited by a new game every once in awhile, but don’t run out and make the purchase right away or even get to talk about it all the time. I have a few other hobbies, but nothing that really drives my interest as much as a good videogame. I feel grown up or more grown than others, but this offended me.

What hobbies should I pursue? What should I change if this makes me happy? How do I develop this interest in videogames into something more respectable that other grown ups can see at reputable?

37 Jasbir September 13, 2013 at 11:24 pm

Excellent podcast. Reminds me of a book I read called, Gut Check: Confronting Love Work & Manhood, by Tarek Saab. There are a lot of single men out there in their parent’s basements playing video games. In opinion it is a sickness aflicting us men, and we need to do our best to help each other. I need to spend some more time with my cousin, and try to get him out of it, and to become a man capable of having a relationship, and wanting to get married and have children. My son is only 3 years old right now, but it’s never too late to start raising him to be a man of character and virtue. I need re-read one of my favourite books, Compass, by James Stenson.

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