Podcast #917: The Most Insightful Personality Test

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• Take the Color Code Assessment
  • Discount code for the assessment: AOM30
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• The Character Code
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Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness podcast. Personality tests sometimes come in for criticism these days for not being very accurate or helpful, or for putting people into boxes. And it’s true that no test can ever entirely peg the complexities of personality, and they shouldn’t be applied with too much rigidity. But what these tests are useful for is serving as a prompt for reflecting on the particular ways you think, feel, and act, and perhaps even more importantly, getting you to think about the fact that other people can see and approach the world in ways that are fundamentally different from your own. I haven’t found a personality test that better serves as this kind of tool than what’s called a People Code, or the color code, which categorizes people into four colors, reds, blues, whites, and yellows.

I’ve found it uncannily insightful in helping me understand myself and others better, and it’s become a regular topic of conversation amongst my family and friends. Today I talked to the creator of the Color Code Personality Profile psychologist Dr. Taylor Hartman. We discussed the strengths and weaknesses of the four color types, how to interact with each color to bring out their best traits and how the colors combine in relationships. We then discussed the importance of developing the strengths of the other colors besides your own. Process Taylor calls becoming character. After the show’s over, check at our show notes at aom.is/color-code.

Alright, Dr. Taylor Hartman, welcome to the show.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Thank you so much. Good to talk to you.

Brett McKay: Likewise. So you wrote a book couple years ago, several years ago, [laughter] called The People Code.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: I did.

Brett McKay: We’re gonna talk about this book today. Before you started digging into personality, you were a practicing therapist. So how did your work as a therapist lead you to exploring personality?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: That’s a great question. I honestly had a very full clientele, and a lot of men, and a lot of men were saying, I need answers. I don’t want you to talk about it. I want solutions to problems. And I look back at my training and I thought they didn’t really train me well in that, so I felt people deserved answers that were always going to be true, not subject to how old you were, how your mom raised you, what your race is, what your religion, none of that should matter. At some point in mental health, there should be solid answers. Like with math two plus two is four, and I didn’t have them. So I went back to the drawing board, did like a second PhD in trying to figure out could I get a truth that was always true across the board. That’s what led me to the color code, which eventually became the People Code.

Brett McKay: Okay. And the color code and the people code, this is… It’s a personality assessment that people can do to help them understand themselves and their motivations, and then also other people. Let’s talk about personality in general. Like how do you define personality? Because we throw that word around a lot. Like, “oh, he’s got a good personality or a bad personality.”

Dr. Taylor Hartman: We do.

Brett McKay: What does it… What is personality?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Well, it’s a combination of preferences, needs, wants. What I brought to the table, which wasn’t there before, was motive. Like, why are you driven to do those behaviors? It’s really a bundle of connections that make you who you are. And for example, no two people are exactly alike, but it certainly helps understand there are preferences that each different kind of personality can share. And that’s what the essence of the color code is. It gives you this beautiful insight into, oh my gosh. Okay, so many people that are of this ilk, they come from this perspective so I can be more tolerant and understanding of them.

Brett McKay: Okay, so personality, desires, motives, just how we interact with the world.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Needs, wants.

Brett McKay: Needs, wants. How do we develop our personality? Is our personality inherent in us or does our life experience help shape our personality?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: You know what’s funny about that, Brett? Women have always known this. You ask any woman, they’ll tell you, this child in the womb was unique. They don’t come the same. It’s not genetic. It’s in your soul. So every human being brings within themself their personality from the get-go, and then nurture impacts it. But you start first with your core personality that is uniquely yours. And then society writes on you.

Brett McKay: Right. Sure. If you have kids, you’ve probably experienced that. You have one child and you saw them as a baby and you could already see their nascent personality when they were an infant. And they were completely different from the other. If you had another kid, like my son and my daughter, completely… You could see their personalities like…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: From the beginning.

Brett McKay: From the beginning. Yeah.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: And if you speak to them both the same, you don’t have the same impact. They don’t take it the same way. That’s very good. Yeah, you’re right.

Brett McKay: Yeah. Like my daughter was very strong-willed and…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yep. From the beginning.

Brett McKay: From the beginning. She wanted to do things by herself. [laughter]

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Independent.

Brett McKay: And my son, not so much, not like that. Yeah.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. He likes more connecting. And is he more emotional or is he more logical?

Brett McKay: He’s more like, he’s both, but I’m more emotional. He likes, he’s a blue. I mean, we’ll talk about what it’s, but he likes to just connect and he gets nostalgic and sometimes when he talks, he’s 12 and he talks like he’s an 80 year old man. [laughter]

Dr. Taylor Hartman: That is 100% true. Blues have a wisdom they almost come with. It’s funny. My wife is blue and I have no blue, and you marry what you’re not, and then you spend the rest of your life trying to fix them and make them what you think they should be. But we typically, we have to appreciate the beauty of why we married that person in the first place.

Brett McKay: So let’s talk about the Hartman personality profile. How did you develop it? What was the process of you trying to figure out whether there’s these different types of personalities, et cetera?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Honestly, I used my clients, they were terrific guests. Helpful to me in the process of trying to figure out if I used these words against each other, what would tell me truly who that person is, who I knew quite intimately at this point. So I was assessing them that way. And I had to play words against each other. For example, if someone is red or blue, I had to have them come up with which one is more who you are, the blue or the red? So the instrument actually was developed with my clients in mind, using them as a reference.

Brett McKay: Okay. So it’s very practical. You’re developing this in the field?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Brett McKay: And how does your personality test differ from other personality tests out there? ’cause I’m sure everyone’s probably taken a Myers-Brigg personality test or some other type.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Right, a disc.

Brett McKay: Yeah, a disc. How does yours differ?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: So the beauty of the difference is everyone else is behavior based. So you even answer the questions based on your behavior. Mine is the only one that is motive based. Why do you do that behavior? What truly drives you at the core? For example, when yellows are irresponsible, people don’t necessarily see why is that. Well, because yellows crave freedom and they can very, very much in the moment as opposed to long term. They don’t think consequences. If you understand the driving core behind that as to why yellow behaves that way, it helps you much better understand how to engage them. And if this it is your core personality, it helps you understand why you react the way you do. So the motive why you do it, that’s what the color code people code offers versus other instruments.

Brett McKay: Yeah. The thing I’ve noticed with those other personality tests that focus on behavior is when I’ve taken them and I’m going through the questions where it says, what would you do in this situation? And I could give different answers depending on the situation ’cause oftentimes behavior is contextual. Like, I’m gonna act a certain way in this situation.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Right, correct.

Brett McKay: But so what you’re saying is the Hartman personality goes because it focuses on motive. It avoids that issue.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: It’s much more true at the end of the day. It’s the thing I talked about earlier. I want a truth that’s always there. Ironically, Brett, you’ll love this. I am the author of this and I thought I was red. And my wife goes Red, you’re not red. I said, look at me. I have a successful practice. I show up. She goes, are you kidding me? Where’s your office? It was on the beach, literally on the beach. And if a client didn’t come, she goes, what do you do? I said, I go to the beach. I have 45 minutes to enjoy myself. She goes, a red does not do that. You’re missing the point totally. But my mom was so red, I figured that’s what I had to be. So I’m buying into the behavior as opposed to the driving core underneath the behavior, which is fun.

Brett McKay: How can knowing your innate motive help you better navigate life and develop as a person?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: First of all, you want life to be congruent. And if you’re not living true to your core motive, you’ll never be happy. It won’t happen for you. For example, blue personalities that have been scarred or hurt, they refuse to be vulnerable and engage. Well, they’re driven by the core of intimacy. They have to have that connection. They’re depriving themselves of the very thing, the essence of breathing. I always say to people, for example, if you block a red from getting from A to B, you’re just keeping them from breathing. You’re choking them. Well that’s not choking a white, but it’s choking a red. So understanding why that’s so important frees you to really enable other people to succeed as well as yourself.

Brett McKay: Let’s talk about personality tests in general. Lately they’ve come in for some criticism. Because they say, they’re not accurate or helpful. How do you respond to that criticism towards personality test in general?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: I think it’s legit. I hate to say it, but the reality is, first of all, when you’re just describing behavior that’s too superficial to really get at the core truth. On the other hand, I admit that because mine is much deeper, it also is more threatening, which I understand that is not necessarily comfortable for people. Or you label someone with it. If I use it as a hammer by saying, oh my gosh, you’re blue. Are you kidding me? That’s worthless. Or I dismiss you because I don’t like your personality. Those kind of things are very harsh. It’s not like you say you don’t like my tennis game, you’re talking about my very core of who I am. It can be very damaging in my mind if you misuse these interpretations.

Brett McKay: It can put you in a box, maybe.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: 100% absolutely.

Brett McKay: Yeah. But I imagine with your test or just personality test in general, it requires a deep amount of self-awareness. Because sometimes we think we’re one way. We have this idea of how we are in our head, but we’re really not that way. And sometimes with these tests, we answer the questions according to what we want to be true about us, but isn’t.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah, that’s right.

Brett McKay: And that can get tricky too.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Very tricky because ’cause we lie to ourselves and of course I’m kinda naïve. Like yellow have that naivety. I’m like, why would you ever lie to yourself about who you are? Like why wouldn’t you wanna know? But that was naive. The reality is many people don’t wanna be what they are, which is tragic by the way ’cause you can’t change that. Your core is who you are. And it always will be. But I do think that it’s maybe threatening for some people to have to admit something. Especially if they’re raised not to believe what they are is okay. That can be very painful.

Brett McKay: Okay. Let’s walk through the four types of personalities your assessment identified. We’ve been saying things like there’s reds, blues, whites, and yellows. Those are the four. Start what percentage of the population makes up each one that you found?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah, so blues those are 35%, reds are 25%, whites are 20%, and yellows are 20%.

Brett McKay: Okay. All right. So let’s do a thumbnail sketch of these different personality types. Let’s start off with reds.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Well, of course, because ’cause they get angry if you don’t.

Brett McKay: Right, yeah. Thumbnail sketch of reds, what motivates them, what are their strengths, et cetera.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Okay. Let’s start with their motivation, which is power. And power simply means moving from A to B. That’s all it means. They need to get things done. They’re decisive, assertive, responsible. They’re proactive. They don’t whine a lot. They’re logical. If you’re dating a red, I promise you they want you to look good on their arm and they’ll get things done. They’ll take care of business, very determined and efficient. That kind of red stuff. Negative side though, they can be very arrogant. I don’t know what it is with reds, they literally are born with a I am right gene in their DNA. So being right all the time, they can be argumentative. And it’s not a negative argument. They just like debating. They can be arrogant. Like, I’m better than you. Are critical of others. They notice things that are not. Impatience is a big red trait. So that’s red in essence.

Brett McKay: So what are reds like as a spouse, parent, employee, et cetera?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: They’re phenomenal at getting things done. They’re great leaders. They’re very resourceful. They can be very demanding. Frightening, like intimidating. Those are positive negatives of a red. And by the way, let’s take Mother Theresa and Putin. They’re both red. So you can see the difference in how they’ve influenced and impacted life with their red personality.

Brett McKay: Right. So red’s just, they want to get things done.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Right. Absolutely.

Brett McKay: How should you interact with a red to get the best out of them?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Reds are all about respect. So if you have an interaction with a red and you know your stuff, you speak to it very succinctly and briefly do not ramble on. Blues often will ramble because they wanna be understood and the red has no desire to understand. They just wanna get the facts. So very directly and bluntly and earn their respect. No whining, they don’t like negative, they like positive. They want answers, not questions and speak up to them. If you’re not assertive with a red, that’s your problem. They don’t feel responsible for why you are not comfortable speaking up. Reds are very confident, so if you don’t have confidence when you deal with a red, they’ll dismiss you.

Brett McKay: Gotcha. So let’s talk about blues. What motivates a blue?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Okay, so blues and reds are so similar and so different. It’s almost frightening. Blue people are driven by intimacy. They’re all about the connection. They too love to get things done, but they don’t wanna walk on people to do it. They are much more interested in a relationship at the end of the day. Their intimacy means connection. And they are compassionate, they’re very sincere. Trust me when a blue says they’ll do something, you can take it to the bank. Very loyal. Loyal to a fault by the way, they’re very loyal to the end. Even if their own expense, they’re thoughtful, they think about things deeply. A lot of blue men are analytical and women, and so they may think they’re red, but blues are very analytical. Like if I wanna sell you something right now, Brett, you wouldn’t buy. You need to think about it. That’s a blue thing.

Brett McKay: I’d be very skeptical.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Absolutely. Yep.

Brett McKay: Yeah, I’m a blue. Full disclosure, I’ve taken the assessment, I’m a blue.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Oh, very… Well, the other piece to that is your gift probably… I think survival gift is intuition. Blues tend to feel things and they feel them pretty accurately, to be honest with you. But on the negative side, they are skeptical at the end of the day also. ‘Cause they expect high standards of everybody else, always. Negative side, they worry way too much. They are so organized and taking care of details, but they always worry. And they and the reds rival each other. The reds can be arrogant and the blues can be self-righteous. It’s hard for blues to forgive because they get hurt so deeply. They also are judgmental, moody. Moody’s one of my most difficult ones with blues. ‘Cause I’m so yellow. I’m like, “Why are you moody?” “Well, did you just see what happened to me?” “Like look what I’m going through” They can be hard to please and overly sensitive. So those are some positive negatives. By the way, reds and blues are the ones that spend their whole life trying to control others. And whites and yellows are the ones who refuse to be controlled.

Brett McKay: Gotcha. Yeah.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: And so blues are more controlling than reds because of the moral that always drives them.

Brett McKay: Okay. So yeah, blues and reds, they’re all about control. They just go about it different ways.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Correct. 100%.

Brett McKay: All right. So reds are using, they’re just gonna be assertive and just like, “Hey, get this done.” Blues are gonna use more emotion and things like that.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Correct. That’s correct. That’s exactly right.

Brett McKay: Yeah. Some of the other things about blues, like limitations, martyr like, and complaints about life.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: They like almost being a victim. It’s like, well, look what I’m going through. It’s horrible.

Brett McKay: Right. Or self-esteem is dependent on outside influences. They have often have a external locus of control as…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: It’s such a great insight. Yeah. It’s sad to me by the way. They’re so capable, but they don’t know that and they’re so honest. Like if you’re applying for a job Brett and you’re red, and I say “Can you do this?” You’ll lie to me. You say, “Of course”. And then you’ll go home and learn how to do it. But a blue can’t do that. The blue has to say no, I’ve never done that. When they actually might be the best at it. So yeah, blues do a lot more internal damage to themselves, are hard on themselves, never quite good enough perfectionism.

Brett McKay: Right. But it sounds like a red they can get a lot of things done because they’re highly conscientious, they’re disciplined, they do a lot of planning because they wanna make sure things go right ’cause they wanna look good. And et cetera. There’s some strengths and weaknesses that…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: To both. Honestly, there really are strengths and weaknesses to both.

Brett McKay: Yeah. If you are interacting with a blue, what’s the best way to do that to get the best out of them?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Number one, you’ve gotta understand them. I’m telling you, at the end of the day, when a blue starts a story, don’t say to them, tell me just the end. Tell me the result. Tell me what I need to know. Let them explain to you how they got there. That’s important to them to be understood. And they’re the only color that needs that at that depth. And then be sincere. If you’re not honest, you’re not genuine, you lose a connection. They don’t trust you. And that’s a big piece to a blue at the same time. And then a really important thing with blues is give them reason to believe what you’re saying is in their best interest. ‘Cause they really are gonna listen at the end. They’re gonna think about what you said and if it doesn’t add up over time, they will then become distrustful of who you are.

Brett McKay: Any famous blues off the top of your head?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. Abraham Lincoln’s a great example. A phenomenal blue, deeply committed, very genuine. We could use more of those kind of people in politics today. That kind of stuff.

Brett McKay: Gotcha. All right. So let’s talk about whites, thumbnail sketch of white. What is their big motivation?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: First of all, they’re the least understood of the color code because they don’t flap their lips a lot. And so people don’t really read them well. Most other personality instruments miss on whites. They don’t get them correctly. Their driving core motive is peace. It’s amazing how whites cannot tolerate conflict. It just is so painful for them. They’ll pass on things they don’t agree with, but they don’t want the conflict, so they’re very peace oriented. Their number one gift is kindness. They will literally… Not so compassionate like a blue, but they’re also not judgmental like the blue. They’re kind and very, very easily like entertained. They may be boring, but they’re not bored. They’re fine within their own skin. Very even tempered. It’s kind of funny, I always have this great slide that I use in trainings where you show this person and there’s all these different experiences, like excited, angry, happy, satisfied, they’re all the same face for a white.

They don’t show any emotion. And then they blow up. They’ll take the hits constantly and all of a sudden they’ll blow over a small deal. Why’s that? ‘Cause they don’t wanna have conflict. So they stuff it all and then eventually it comes out. They’re great listeners, amazing listeners. They never make it about themselves, very like agreeable. It’s always room for another white at the table. They’re diplomatic, very adaptable to life and patient. I used to get so frustrated on the freeways in Southern California and my white daughter would go, you know it was gonna be crowded when you got on. Why are you upset?

Very accepting of difference and diversity. They’re not threatened by different ideas. A negative side. Oh my gosh. They can be so indecisive. You ask a white where they wanna go to lunch, they have no idea. And they’ll get angry if you make them tell you. ‘Cause they just want to go, whatever you wanna do. And when you get an unmotivated white, I think Brett, that’s the hardest one for me. ‘Cause they just… There’s nothing you can do. They don’t care. I mean, a red that’s unmotivated, you can nail them and a blue’s easy ’cause they wanna please but not a white. They’re like mm-hmm.

I don’t need it. So there’s a silent stubbornness. You can look right at a white and say, we’re gonna do this, and they will not show you yes or no. And then they’ll do whatever they want, afterwards. They can be very self-deprecating, not real confident. They don’t have a lot of belief in themselves. They can be unenthusiastic, almost withdrawn. And like I said, they can be boring. They don’t have a lot to say very often. I remember the time my blue wife flew with my white daughter, we were going back to California to get her teeth worked on, and my wife said, I’m just gonna talk to her and see when, how long it takes. And they flew there, did the work, flew home, [laughter] and finally my blue wife blows up, says, what is wrong? And my white daughter goes, what’s wrong with what? We had a great trip. What’s the problem? [laughter] So they can be very passive, that direction.

Brett McKay: Right. So you said, okay, red and blue, they want to control, white, they don’t want to be controlled.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Not at all.

Brett McKay: Right.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Nope. And they’re very hard to know how to, when they’re not being controlled, because they don’t tell you anything. They don’t give you a lot.

Brett McKay: Right. And then that’s where the stubbornness can come in. If they don’t want to be controlled and you’re telling them to do something, they might just give you the silent treatment and just not do anything.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: 100%. Yeah. The only way to win with a white, by the way, is you have to let them grow the grass while you sit with them. They’re looking at you to see if you’re kind. And if you… And by the way, they can take direct feedback. They’re not weak, but when it gets emotional and judgy, that’s when they shut down completely. Like in the military, a lot of whites do really well. They’re fine with direct feedback, but they don’t like going when it gets emotional.

Brett McKay: Right. So they resent being pressured to do things.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yes. Yep.

Brett McKay: Nudging them all the time.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Correct.

 So if you have a kid who’s a white, like telling you got to clean your room, clean your room, clean your room, that’s not, it’s probably not gonna work.

Drives them crazy.

Brett McKay: Yeah.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. And they’ll hate you. They’ll resent your person, not just what you’re saying.

Brett McKay: And they probably won’t say anything though, because again, their main motive is peace.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: That’s correct. They don’t want the conflict. [laughter] And they don’t wanna be mean, but they’re mean by not saying anything.

Brett McKay: I guess, they might take a more passive aggressive approach, is what we would say.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: 100%. Oh, that is the crux, of a white.

Brett McKay: Yeah. You gave a good story from a client you had, years ago where it was a husband. The husband was a white, I think the wife was a red, and the wife was just getting really angry at the husband. She started throwing stuff on the ground and the white husband didn’t say anything and just started sweeping up the stuff.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. Yeah.

Brett McKay: And it just made the the red wife even more angry that he wasn’t responding. [laughter]

Dr. Taylor Hartman: That’s it. She didn’t respect him. Yeah. She knew she was out of line. She was mean, but it killed her that he would not respond.

Brett McKay: Okay. So, all right. So white, their motive is peace. Let’s talk about yellow. What is their main motivation?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: It’s fun. Yellows are fun. Yellows are what you wanna be when you’re like 0-18. Like they’re just fun. They’re at the party, they’re at the restaurant. They’re at the table next to you having such a great time in life. They’re driven by fun. And that means living in the moment, whatever that might be. The interesting thing about yellows is people who are raising yellows are like, are they ever gonna make it? Like what are they gonna do? Like after that part of their life goes, freedom is like number two, fun is the driving core. And freedom is the number two trait they crave. They’re very enthusiastic, optimistic, hard not to like unless you’re raising one, very carefree. They don’t worry about things at all. They just go and life figures it out. Optimistic. They’re spontaneous. Yellows don’t really like long-term planning.

They like short-term things, just opportunities. They wake up happy. I remember I worked on being thoughtful, a blue trait for like six months. And my wife said, oh, that’s a real hard one. ‘Cause she’s so blue. I said, okay, why don’t you wake up happy every day? And she’s like oh, I get it. It’s different for all of us. So happiness is something yellows do naturally. Very charismatic. They’re very sociable. They like engaging. If you wanna really get a yellow, send them to the room and they go crazy. They don’t wanna be with themselves alone for a half an hour, but a white would live there, if they could. And so they’re very trusting and playful. The negative side, they’re very self-centered. I’m gonna go do this. If you wanna come, great. If not, then I’ll just go do it anyway. Uncommitted, they don’t understand the idea of being responsible to what you say you’re going to do and following through the, they’re disorganized, like their rooms.

My office, my wife has to come in like every three months and say, oh my gosh, this is obliterated. I got to figure it out. And they’re impulsive and undisciplined, like doing the same thing every day. Bores yellows to death, which is really kind of the essence of a quality life, if you think about it. But yellows have a hard time with that. And they’re afraid to face facts. They don’t like being tied to, ownership of what’s going on in their life. Unfocused. They have a hard time staying with a thing. They can be very irresponsible. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I said that, but that doesn’t matter anymore. And they’ll blow off consequences. So.

Brett McKay: And you’re a yellow, correct?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: I am yellow, absolutely. Yep.

Brett McKay: And, you’ve done well for yourself. It seems like, despite…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: I was very fortunate to be raised by a very red mother and a good father that was very blue, but she owned me. The thing you wanna do with yellows, if you adore them, you can own them, but if you don’t adore them, they’re rebellious, even to their own chagrin. Like they’ll even lose ground. But if you want to own a yellow, you have to adore them. And no other color demands that, but yellow.

Brett McKay: Okay. So yeah, like white, yellow doesn’t like to be controlled, but one way you can connect with them is just praise them, give them lots of admiration.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Absolutely. And like them, and you know what’s funny about that is that yellows need structure. Their life is better with it, but they tend to resist it and fight it. So if you really wanna provide that for them, you have to do it with a spoonful of sugar.

Brett McKay: Gotcha. Okay. So, red, motivated by power, blue is motivated by intimacy, white’s motivated by peace, and yellow’s motivated by fun.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Right.

Brett McKay: I didn’t ask you, any famous whites off the top of your head?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah, I think Albert Einstein was a white, certainly Jimmy Carter as a president was a better human being than president in my mind. But he is a great man, very, very committed to the wellbeing of others and not about himself. Yeah, that’s another white trait.

Brett McKay: Okay. What about famous yellows?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Oh yeah. You have Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. They’re both classic yellows. The Republicans didn’t like Bill Clinton, but they couldn’t touch him. Democrats didn’t like Reagan, they couldn’t touch him. Very yellow. Very, very engaging and fun people. And then a lot of Hollywood stars, are yellow as well.

Brett McKay: Well, that’s interesting. So you mentioned Hollywood stars tend to be yellow, different colors. Are they attracted to different careers?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Very much so, yeah. That’s a great question. Like blues typically want to teach, a lot of teachers in that. And by the way, all principals start as teachers, but most principals are red. So it’s interesting how they kind of move up the ladder in terms of leadership. Police officers are typically more red and white and you have CPAs, very few yellows in that world, more blues and whites. So yes, every different kind of career appeals to different people.

Brett McKay: We’re gonna take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. And now back to the show. When you take this assessment, can you end up being labeled as more than one color?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. Thank you. Here’s the truth. You have a driving core motive, but like in my situation, when I take it, I am 43 out of 45 yellow. I have to go yellow to be honest. But when I can’t answer the yellow, I’m red. So obviously, I’m a stronger yellow than the yellow whose yellow with white and yellow was white is more likable and less focused and driven. So your secondary color would definitely impact you positive and/or negative. And then if you have all equal, like if you’re 12, 15, 14, 12, for example, you’d be white. At the end of the day, your driving core is still lack of conflict, peace. But you have dimensions of each of them in you. It’s interesting, a lot of people say to me, “Well, doesn’t everybody have everything in them?” And I’m like, “No, they don’t necessarily have that. But you can actually develop all the traits of all the colors.”

Brett McKay: Yeah, we’ll talk about that here in a bit, this idea of becoming charactered. Yeah. For me, it’s interesting. So, whenever I take the assessment, I’ve done it multiple times, different times, it’s always blue, like it’s hard blue, but that’s the core.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: That’s your core. Yeah.

Brett McKay: But then the thing that can kind of switch a little back and forth is my secondary color. Sometimes it shows up more strongly as red and sometimes white. And I’m wondering if it’s because maybe your secondary color, it seems like it can be more influenced by your nurturing that you got when you’re growing up.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah.

Brett McKay: But then also like in particular circumstances you’re in during different phases of your life, like a close relationship you might have can bring out more of one of the other colors like their influence does. Or you might get in a situation that brings out a certain color to the fore. Like you’re in a situation that requires you to be more of a red, so your core stays the same, but you have to do more red things and that shifts your secondary color to red.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Great insight. Yep. You could developed that, right? That’s exactly right. I mean, I remember for example, I was traveling a whole much in the world and I was so not assertive and I had to develop that trait, or I was never gonna get a room in these places that I would go. And so I developed the red trait of assertion and that was not me growing up at all. So yeah, you can actually, but that’s still secondary, it’s not my core.

Brett McKay: Right. And you talk about some of these combinations, they work better than others. I think you said the most difficult one to have is blue-red or red-blue.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: You know, they’re my favorite people, honestly, and they’re everything I’m not, but I love these people, they’re so real and they’re so genuine and their battle is so real. They fight in their head. Blue with red is even the hardest because they’ll do these negative red traits and then they’ll feel apologetic and bad about it. But there’s nothing they can’t do. But they fight with themselves all the time. So, and even in combination of two people, red-blue is a very common marriage, but they will struggle. There’s no question. Because the reality is they both want control and they both make good points as to why they should be in control. So I would say that’s probably a more difficult one. I have a lot, lots of clients through the years that are red and blue, just trying to figure each other out, how to navigate each other.

Brett McKay: So a red-blue relationship can be difficult. How do some of the other colors combine in relationships?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: The easier ones are like red-white, and blue-yellow, they’re an easier blend. Whites and yellows are not a common blend in marriage. There’s a lacking leadership, typically. And typically in that scenario, the yellow will turn more red and be more of a leader in that relationship. But every color can marry well with any color. That’s so important, people understand you’re not limited by saying, “Well, I can’t marry you because you are a yellow or a white. That’s bad for me.” That’s not healthy at all to have that mindset.

Brett McKay: Right. So you don’t want, when you’re thinking about popping the question, you don’t wanna say, I need you to take this Hartman personality test. [laughter] And if it’s, if I’m a blue and it turns out you’re red, it’s off, no dice.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: We’re not going any further. No, no. You know what’s sad about that, Brett? I don’t ever want to someone to think that I believe that means it’s not a good relationship. What I wish people knew was, “Okay, so if I’d marry you, these are realities we will have.” That’s all. Just know what you’re gonna deal with. And I think all of us have to overlook things in relationships anyway. Right? So you can then decide better, “Oh, you know what? I get that now, but I still want who you are and what you are for me in my life.” And or I don’t. Right?

Brett McKay: Blue-blue relationships work really well. I’m in a blue-blue marriage. And blue-yellow get along really well, you said?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yes. Because the blue is very sincere and very genuine, but the yellow brings that kind of playful lighter part. And the yellow is less responsible. So the blues is more like, more, “No, hey, we need to put this boundary around this.” So yeah, they do pretty well that way. Yeah.

Brett McKay: What about Reds? What was the ones that they connected best with in a relationship?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Reds do really well with whites. Like they’re, so here’s the difference, like blues and yellows are emotion based, right? And reds and whites are both logic-based. And so, and I still think about this time where I was doing a retreat down in Mexico and this white woman who was just absolutely a wonderful human being, gentle and easy. And this red man said to her, why did you marry your red husband? And she goes, I wanted someone to tell me what to do. [laughter] And this man adored her. Like they had built this incredible relationship together. And I love red-white because whites are not ego-based and reds are typically, so what you find is they’re more compatible. They understand the intellect behind each other. It’s less emotional, but deeply caring.

Brett McKay: What about yellows and reds? Do they get along?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah, actually they can do very well together. They’re actually more feisty. If you’re yellow and red together, they’re more feisty with each other. So if they’re healthy, it can be a really exciting blend. But if they’re not healthy, like the red will say, “You’re too irresponsible for me. I can’t respect you.” Or the yellow will say, “You’re just too mean-spirited. You’re not fun.” That’s the negative side of that dimension. But when they’re healthy, it can be a very positive, not a lot of baggage. They kinda move on pretty freely.

Brett McKay: So yeah. I like this idea. I wanna dig into this idea of healthy and unhealthy. You talk about that in the book. Part of developing your personality or kind of harnessing it is you want to harness the good things about it and kind of mitigate the negatives.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Correct.

Brett McKay: And that’s like a healthy. Unhealthy is where you’re just letting the negative take control of your life.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Correct.

Brett McKay: And then there’s another one you mentioned that was, where it’s like just disordered.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. The sicko.

Brett McKay: Yeah. What’s a sicko like? What do they look like?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Well, the sicko literally lives their life in the negatives of other colors that isn’t even them.

Brett McKay: Hmm.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: It’s ridiculous. But they do develop those traits or they… For survival, they go there. It’d be me as a yellow being critical. Who wants to have fun with me when I’m critical all the time. That’s not gonna happen. Or a blue who really wants to connect, but they’re so passive, they don’t ever say anything. They have this negative passivity about them, that doesn’t breed them what they want or… A red that is not productive. They’re lazy. It’s just… It’s uninviting of your core. People that are sicko, they literally put out for the universe the reasons not to connect with them and be successful.

Brett McKay: And they probably feel a lot of dis-congruency in their life ’cause they’re not…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: It’s so true.

Brett McKay: Yeah.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: It’s so real. Yeah. And they can’t figure out what it is, but it’s them creating it.

Brett McKay: A lot of the people you had as patients as a therapist that had the biggest problems. Were they that sicko type, that disordered type?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. They have, the incongruence. They… And hard, hard to own it. They have a really hard time owning what’s going on with them as to why they’re creating the world they’re creating, that’s the… The essence of good therapy is helping somebody see what role are you playing in your life.

Brett McKay: Okay. Understanding your personality and your driving motive, that can help you embrace the good that you have and to feel that congruency where you’re just feeling, I’m living the life I need to live. And yes, there are negatives. There’s downsides to that, but you can mitigate that and just harness those positives. And one of the things… That’s useful too. I think that’s really helpful for understanding yourself and trying to figure out, well, should I take this job? Or how can I do my job in a different way? Or how can I show up better as a parent or as a husband or in my church or whatever? But one of the really powerful things about the color code is just, it helps… It’s helped me relate to people better, ’cause…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: So good. Yeah.

Brett McKay: You can kind of… Once you read this stuff and kind of see what the strengths and weaknesses are of the different personality, you can see your friends and the people you interact with and you’re not gonna be able to do a full on assessment, but you’re kind of able to see, well, they’re… It looks like they might be this, like they might be a blue.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: That’s right. That’s right.

Brett McKay: And so I’m able to relate with them in a way that brings out the best in them.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: That makes me happy. That’s exactly the point that I wrote before.

Brett McKay: Yeah.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: See who you are and then forgive people for being who they are.

Brett McKay: Right. ‘Cause I think, we were talking about this earlier before we started this conversation. Oftentimes whenever we… Cognitively people understand or know that other people don’t see the world as they do. But then when we actually interact with people, we get really frustrated that they don’t do the things or see the world that we do. And then what ends up happening is we attribute that to some sort of moral failure.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Right.

Brett McKay: So it’s like a blue, they’re really about loyalty and sticking to commitments.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah.

Brett McKay: And so if you make a commitment with your yellow friend and then your yellow friend, they flake out because something else came up and they just forgot it. And you’d say, man that yellow friend is just a terrible person and they’re bad and blah, blah, blah.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yes.

Brett McKay: But actually once you have this color code idea, it’s no. It’s not that they’re bad, it’s just that that’s just how they… That’s how they do things.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. And you know what’s sad about that too, Brett, is that, say that’s you, for example, you’re a blue and you have this yellow friend that you really enjoy. They color your life in a positive way, but they’re a flake. You would if… Say you go, you know what? They’re a bad person. I don’t want them in my life anymore. And you cut them out. You actually cut yourself out of a very life enhancing kind of relationship. So it really is sad when people can’t give people a little bit of space and accept them as for what they are and then appreciate their strengths, what they play to.

Brett McKay: Right.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Instead of what’s negative about them.

Brett McKay: And… Yeah, you start seeing that people are… They’re doing the thing that’s the most rewarding to them. And…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Right.

Brett McKay: These aren’t moral differences.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: I like that.

Brett McKay: They’re just personality differences.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Well, it’s really kind of cool, especially for you as a blue to say that. It’s so cool when a blue steps off that chair, that moral superiority.

Brett McKay: Yeah.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: And that’s cool. That’s impressive.

Brett McKay: It’s helpful. It is really helpful. And also it’s been helpful. It’s made… Okay, here’s my blue coming in. It’s made me more skeptical of advice, like life advice that’s given, but in a good way.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah.

Brett McKay: Right. ‘Cause you’ll hear these… You’ll read these articles, we put these articles out and you’ll read these articles saying, well you’ll be happiest if you do X.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah.

Brett McKay: And then you have all this research that say, people are happiest when they do X, Y, Z.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Right.

Brett McKay: But people’s individual advice is based on their personal experiences and what they find most rewarding and research studies, those are based on averages.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yep. You’re right.

Brett McKay: So, you might read this thing, well, if I do X I’ll be happy. But if you’re a white or a red or whatever, it might not make you happy.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: It’s not the same at all. Like if you force somebody into something believing that will make them happy and that’s not really what’s gonna make them happy. They’re miserable and wondering why.

Brett McKay: Right.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: But if you knew yourself, you’d say, what really makes me happy, for example, is being alone with my dog in the mountains. That’s really what I want. Well, you shouldn’t want that. You should wanna be with somebody. Well, therefore we’re making it impossible for them to do what really does bring them happiness.

Brett McKay: Right. So, one thing I’d like… You hear these studies that you can’t trust your first impression. And that might be true for yellows, yellows are very like… They’re just open to people like, ‘Hey, you’re a person I like talking to you and I’m gonna be best friends.’ And then you come to find out that person might be a sociopath or whatever.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Right. That’s exactly right.

Brett McKay: But a blue, that’s not true for blue. Usually when blue has a first impression of something or somebody, it’s usually true.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: You know what’s so irritating about that by the way, my wife and I’ll go places and she’ll say, “Not so sure about that guy.” And I’m like, “Are you kidding me? You hardly know him. How can you make that comment?” And sure enough it comes out that she’s right. I don’t have that gift of just intuition that you guys have. Pretty impressive to me. But on the other hand, in the defense of the yellow who’s naive, they land on their feet. Like somehow they bounce and they move on. So, it doesn’t scathe them the same way it would, being someone else being disloyal like to a blue.

Brett McKay: Right.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: So, everybody has a different gift for how they get through life is what I’m saying.

Brett McKay: Yeah. Like another one I’ve seen is studies that show that you get more pleasure planning a vacation than in taking a vacation. And they’re like, that’s probably gonna be true for reds. [laughter] Reds will probably love planning that vacation. Or even blues. Blues might love planning a vacation. That’s not gonna be…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: You’re spot on.

Brett McKay: Not gonna be true for yellows. They actually just want to go on the vacation.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Never in a lifetime. No, no. I love that example ’cause I just had someone tell me that their father-in-law plans the best trips in the world, but the minute they’re there, he’s bored to tears. And I’m like, “What is the point if you’re not gonna enjoy it when you’re there.” [laughter] So, you’re right about that. Every color sees it differently. That’s right.

Brett McKay: Yeah. I’ve seen that also just with just our friends. My wife and I, we love to plan things. And then you sometimes get where it’s like, why isn’t this person planning anything? But it’s like, well, no, that’s not what they like to do. They just like to show up and have a good time. So just appreciate that. ‘Cause now you have somebody that can have a good time doing the thing you planned.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: And honestly, they wouldn’t do a good job of planning for you. I promise you, you and your wife would go, why would they have planned this? My wife and I took 18 of us from our family just to Peru. My wife planned this amazing trip for all of us to do. I could never have done that in a million years. But appreciating what she put together and then I was, fun when we were there. Like, let’s go do this, let’s try that. It’s a great combination, but you should appreciate the gifts other people bring. Like, I appreciate the depth of what she provides that I would not have provided on my own.

Brett McKay: Okay. So, understanding your personality can help you get the most out of life. Maybe figure out how to intake or use advice that you see out there that sort of lines up with you, and then also help you relate to others and also give people a bit of more grace, we’ll say.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yes. Yes. Good word.

Brett McKay: So you have this idea of becoming charactered that goes beyond just developing your positive personality traits. What does it mean to become charactered?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: So, character is any positive trait you pick up in life and develop, that is not naturally yours. So, if you look at the color code and you have certain traits of you that are natural, and then traits you don’t really have at all. Like I said, working on being thoughtful for me, well, okay, how did that enhance my life? But putting into my life. It enriched my relationships with people. It disciplined me instead of living in the moment to take a minute and appreciate what someone had done and send a note to them. I went on every level by doing that and it forced me to be a better person in the process.

Brett McKay: Gotcha. Do you have like a suggested way to go about this? I guess it sounds like you need to have… You need to develop your innate personality first before you try becoming charactered?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: That’s correct. You start by loving who you are. Start by valuing and accepting your core, that’s you. And then what you do is, I have this theory idea type tied around a coach and a mentor. You pick two to three words you really would like to work on and develop. And then once you’ve done that, then you decide who does that really well? Pick one to focus on, for example. Who is a good mentor that actually does that? Say you’re not really good at living in the moment and you have a yellow friend who’s phenomenal at enjoying when they’re doing whatever they’re doing. They love it in the moment. Okay, I’m gonna use that person as a model for what I wanna develop into. But that person can’t show you or teach you how to do it because they just do it.

So then you need a coach. And the coach would be perhaps a blue, for example, that used to be stuck in planning and not living in the moment. And so, they developed skill of living in the moment, they know the steps they went through things they had to give away to do that. And then you ask that person to give you clues on what might help you shift your perspective, change your mindset. And so, the coach gets you down the road and the mentor is this example of what you wanna look like when you’re done. And you give it six months. Like give it time to actually percolate and happen and slips and slides and it’s not easily. And then just feel the, relish the joy when someone says to you, “Oh my gosh, you are such a great listener.” And you’re going, “That’s exactly what I’m working on. No one knew that.” And what it meant to me at the end of the day when I heard that was those words. So that’s the process of becoming more character.

Brett McKay: It sounds like this could be useful in your work, right? You might be a blue and you might thrive at your job with using your blue attributes or a red attribute or whatever it is you are. But then you might reach a point in your career, or there’s certain situations with your work where you need to be more of a yellow.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. Yeah.

Brett McKay: And so, you have to start trying to be a little bit more outgoing and extroverted.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Correct.

Brett McKay: It’s gonna be hard, but you do it because you wanna be a better person overall.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Right. Right. And you know what’s funny about that, Brett? People that are yellow will notice what you’re doing and appreciate you even more. When you try and take on the trait of a person, those people of that color really appreciate your effort and they actually invite you in and respect you more.

Brett McKay: Right.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: So, you need to know it only enhances your relationships with other people, plus you’re becoming a better person at the same time.

Brett McKay: Gotcha. Yeah, I’ve noticed that with me. So, I’m a blue and I think blues tend to be more introverted.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah, they do.

Brett McKay: And it…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: More introspective.

Brett McKay: Yeah, introspective. I’m not shy, like I don’t have social anxiety. But I just prefer to be with small groups of people or by myself. But I know that if I really wanna get the most out of life, I have to expand my social circle and just be more of a yellow. And so…

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Good for you.

Brett McKay: Yeah. I’ll find… I’ll try to find opportunities to put myself out there and just interact with people I’ve never talked to before. And it’s exhausting. Like after I go to a party and I’m just mingling with all these people and doing the small talk.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yes.

Brett McKay: It doesn’t come easy to me. I’m actually having to exert myself like physically and mentally and I’m tired after it. And then I have to recharge. But I do it, it’s made my life better.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: God, that’s great. No, it’s so true. Look at again, the motive. So, the motive for you not doing that would be fear-based. The motive for you doing that is love-based. You’re actually, the motive behind why you’re stretching is very positive, proactive, love-based. And that’s why it works. If people stay stuck in their own color saying, “You know what? I’m a yellow. It doesn’t matter if I blow you off or not, I’m still a happy person.” That is so fear-based. I don’t wanna be accountable, I don’t wanna grow, I don’t wanna take responsibility. So, that’s fear-based. Whereas the love-based is, I wanna enhance the relationship people have with me. So, that’s what you’re doing. Exactly what you’re doing.

Brett McKay: Yeah. You play to win, not to lose.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah, yeah. That’s exactly right. Yeah, you’re right.

Brett McKay: And I guess if you’re red, that being charactered might be like, well, I’m gonna just gonna be more like a white kind of just go with the flow in this situation.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: I will tell you something. Reds have such gifts of leadership that if they could just see that by being more caring and more like listening better than in asserting themselves, they could lead people so much more successfully than they may be. It’s just that they’re adding gifts of depth and caring that they may not think is necessary. In fact, I say to people, when you add to your traits things you don’t need yourself, that’s genuine character. You don’t need someone to notice you or praise you, but you’re able to praise someone else, that’s really a step beyond.

Brett McKay: Yeah. I like that. Well, is there anything else we haven’t hit on with the Hartman Personality Profile that you really are passionate about that you want people to know?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: I think the essence of it is people are really good people. There’s so much right with us as opposed to what’s wrong. You should not focus on the negative and what’s bad. But also realize that if you wanna die better than you were born, you’ve got to take apart some of the stuff that’s keeping you from being your best self. That really is the joy of becoming a better human being. That’s what I want them to know. And this is a tool that works, I promise you it works.

Brett McKay: No, we love talking about the people code in our family and with our friends.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: That’s cool.

Brett McKay: ‘Cause there’s always… We’ll have an interaction like, “Oh that person was, that was a yellow. That was a white.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yes.

Brett McKay: And it’s fun. But again, you do it in a way where you’re not trying to put them in a box. There is just… It helps you figure out how you can relate better with them.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: 100%. Yeah.

Brett McKay: Well, Taylor it’s been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about your work?

Dr. Taylor Hartman: The best thing they can do is go to taylorhartman.com. So, it’s taylorhartman.com, click on Take the Profile, and I’m giving your listeners 30% off for the Hartman Color Code Profile, and for any Hartman gift cards. So, if they go to taylorhartman.com and click on Take the Profile and then use the AOM30.

Brett McKay: AOM30. Okay.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: AOM30.

Brett McKay: Will be sure to put that in the show notes as well.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Enjoy it. Yeah, absolutely. Happy to have you on board.

Brett McKay: And you got your books too, the People Code and then the Character Code as well.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: Yeah. And actually, just so you know, just literally this week it launched the Audible, so…

Brett McKay: Oh, great.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: So, people can listen if they want from Amazon.

Brett McKay: Well, Taylor Hartman, thanks for your time. It’s been a pleasure.

Dr. Taylor Hartman: It’s been a real pleasure, Brett. Thanks for you. Bye now.

Brett McKay: My guest today was Dr. Taylor Hartman. He’s the author of the book, the People Code. It’s available on amazon.com. And if you’re interested in taking the Color Code Assessment, it’s included in the People Code book, or you can take it online on Taylor’s website, taylorhartman.com. Be sure to use Code AOM30 for that discount. And when you’ve done taking it, if you’re on Twitter, make sure to tweet us. Let us know what your color is, love to see that. And also check out our show notes at aom.is/color-code where you find links to resources. We can delve deeper into this topic.

Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast. Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com where you find our podcast archives as well as thousands of articles that we’ve written over the years about pretty much anything you can think of. And if you haven’t done so already, I’d appreciate it if you take one minute to give us review on Apple podcast or Spotify, it helps out a lot. And if you’ve done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think we get something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support and until next time, it’s Brett McKay, remind you to try and listen to AOM podcast, but put what you’ve heard into action.