The Art of Manliness Podcast Episode #36: The Decline of Males with Dr. Lionel Tiger

by Brett on March 24, 2011 · 41 comments

in Podcast

Welcome back to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. In this week’s episode, we talk to Dr. Lionel Tiger, author of the book, The Decline of Males: The First Look at an Unexpected New World for Men and Women. Dr. Tiger is the Charles Darwin Professor of Anthropology at Rutgers University. He has written several articles and books on how human biology effects social interaction.

In this podcast, Dr. Tiger discusses the ways he believes men in the West are in decline and the reasons why they’re falling behind women. We also talk about a new academic discipline Dr. Tiger is working on bringing to universities called “Male Studies,” as well as the small, but growing Men’s Rights Movement in many Western countries.

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{ 41 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Mark March 24, 2011 at 3:17 pm

I am glad to see this issue being brought to the forefront and gaining more attention. There are a number of deficiencies with men on multiple fronts, and men are suffering in silence over this. The question is what can be done to resolve this. I find the concept of men becoming outlaws particularly disturbing. Outlaw behavior can manifest itself in countless ways, and be of great detriment almost anywhere.

I’m curious to see how men respond to the illustrations of our decline, as well as thoughts on how to correct it. Great post.

2 Ben March 24, 2011 at 5:23 pm

While he makes many valid points, what is the purpose of the off topic attack on creationists he throws in there?

His argument is that manliness has gone by the wayside since the traditional family structure has been discarded. Last I checked the US had traditional family structure when it was a Christian nation. The cancer of feminism can exist and has flourished only in the void created by the absence of Christian morality.

3 Brian March 24, 2011 at 5:30 pm

The decline of men is happening only because we as men are allowing it to happen. We as men are allowing the lawmakers to crate laws favoring feminists and punishing men, we are allowing the education system to cater to girls and leave the boys behind. We as men have forgotten that we have BALLS, and society needs us to use them. Put the women back in their places. Get your balls back, get society back. Simple as that, gentlemen.

4 Rob March 24, 2011 at 6:37 pm

Woah, woah woah.
First, about other commenters. I think @Ben’s description of feminism as a ‘cancer’ is WAY off. I consider myself a feminist, I want my (future) daughters to be as successful as my (future) sons. Also, @Brian, what exactly is a ‘place’ for a woman? I assume you mean something akin to AMC’s ‘Mad Men’ would be better? Really, this vitrol is thankfully unusual on this site.

Second, to the conversation piece. I would like to wish Dr. Tiger better health to get over his illness (Also, Lionel Tiger, now THAT is a name.). His comments were interesting. Some of it was over the top. The U of Toronto’s courses are feed through student demand. If more men wanted classes on bros and dudes, not gay and trans-gender men, then there would be some. Unfortunately, no men or women are requesting these courses at this one university. I did agree with his demonization of Ritalin in the elementary schools. This is a subject I think deserves a lot more attention. All in all this was a very good discussion, and I wish Mr. McKay had injected a bit more opinion into the topic. More of a back and forth might have been nice. Thank you again

5 Brett March 24, 2011 at 7:07 pm

@Ben,
the man is a scientist: DR. Lionel Tiger. No legitimate scientific organizations (the ICR is not recognized as legitimate) accept creationism. I do not mean to attack you or your viewpoints, but I think it is important that you understand that it was not an “off topic attack on creationists,” but part of his explanation of why men have been declining: people fail to understand that it is not only a sociological issue, but a biological, and he NOTED that many Creationists do not care about biology, which only worsens the issue.

6 Jon Stock March 24, 2011 at 8:02 pm

Every time I hear this issue discussed I find it particularly unsettling. Everywhere I look I see more evidence of it. I am in graduate school, and my class has 5 males and 15 females.

I really don’t know what to do or feel sometimes. At times I am angry at feminism and women, but then I catch myself and see that it is not only a result of that movement.

The young men around me seem disinterested in their own lives, and as much as I try, I can not get them to look to their own future. On the other hand, young, ambitious, hard working women I can find almost anywhere. I don’t want to be the only man out of all my peers.

7 JonathanL March 24, 2011 at 9:55 pm

One of the reasons for the decline of head of household males is the drain of manufacturing and skilled labor jobs from America to other countries. Mike Rowe of “Dirty Jobs” has a site (http://www.mikeroweworks.com/) that tries to address the lack of skilled labor and the value of this work.

I object to the idea that Christian faith and/or morality is the last bulwark against the decline of the American family. Morality and religion are not so directly linked as that.

I think that Dr. Lionel Tiger has some good ideas, but he came off as defensive in the face of modern society, occasionally drifting from a solid argument to one that seemed to fly off on a tangent about drugs and turning our boys into girls, which I don’t think is as omnipresent or insidious as he claimed.

It was still interesting, though. The changing roles of the sexes in today’s America is a fascinating topic for discussion.

8 aaron March 25, 2011 at 8:02 am

didn’t you guys know what male studies is all about? it’s not about having a good time with the guys watching the game. it’s about opening up and realizing that women don’t own the “feminine” side of personality and emotion. male studies forwards ideas like: it’s ok to be emotional and male. it’s ok to be homosexual and male. it’s ok to be whatever person you want to be, regardless of what your genitals and hegemonic culture might make you suspect.

I for one welcome these sorts of ideas on the AoM site; they are all too rare.

9 Yates March 25, 2011 at 9:26 am

I found this post quite interesting. I suppose the popularity of this website alone reflects the “high demand” for masculinity. I think it’s very interesting how the discussion on this post has quickly shifted to morality.

Regardless of your philosophical stance, I find it very hard to honestly defend the idea that the link of morality and religion is not a strong one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_without_religion

My takeaway from this podcast is that America needs fathers to teach their sons.

10 Jon Stock March 25, 2011 at 9:35 am

Aaron, I think most of us on this site do not want to be more feminine. We want to rediscover masculinity, our own identity.

11 Robert James Kobus March 25, 2011 at 10:47 am

Preciousness and thank you.

12 Robert James Kobus March 25, 2011 at 10:48 am

Preciousness and thank you for your energy expended.

13 Joey K March 25, 2011 at 12:41 pm

Gentlemen, oh how this subject has ignited a fury of emotions in myself and all of you. And I must say I agree with the good Doctor on his thesis, and most of you. I must say we as men must grow some “balls” as it were, but it must be as intelligently and respectfully as possible. We also have to take it upon ourselves to do this. If we all teach our sons, friends, peers, and colleagues to be respectable men that are appropriate and dignified we have a chance to resume our past role. How do we do this you may ask? I have thought of some guide lines that all men can do to gain our foothold back.

First, learn to hunt again. Hunting has declined in this nation rapidly, find a good buddy hat is responsible and smart, take a hunters safety course or two, or three and get out into the wilderness. There is nothing more manly than tracking a wild animal, killing it cleanly, (and humanely), bringing the meat home, and feeding your family with it. Now that we have that masculine urge fulfilled it’s now time to get down to business.

Next we need to focus on teaching folks what it is to be a man, this includes your wife, girlfriend, sons, daughters, and peers. And I mean a real man, not a neanderthal, you got that urge out with the hunt I mentioned earlier. I mean the standing up for manly virtues: hard work, etiquette, honesty, yeah all the stuff TR stood for. Do this in private with friends or public. Get out of the house and join the local Elks club, do what your grand dad did. Once in this setting discuss these virtues and how to use them to help the community.

Next for you die hards who want to show the world what good manliness is, and you really want to do something about it…Go be a TEACHER. Yep, I said it, go do a “females” job, and do it the man way. I am currently a teacher, and I love it. I also coach football and basketball. There is no better way to reach boys and teach them to be real men than in the classroom. I teach like a man for boys. Girls easily adapt to the constant moving and activities, and I must say they Aldo enjoy the hands on stuff. It is Much harder for a boy to adapt to the girl way of teaching this country has adopted; you know, sitting in a desk for 50 minutes and listening quietly taking notes. Yes this is a good skill to have, and a boy must know how to do these skills, but come on 50 minutes a period times 7 period a day? That’s a lot of “butt time,” as we say.

Sorry to rant but being a teacher I feel I am somewhat proficient at this subject. And for you guys that have a strong capitalist back bone and say, “teachers don’t get paid enough! I’m not sacrificing my career for pennies on the dollar.” Well the wind of change is blowing my friends, and I for one welcome it. Unions are losing their clout and sadly, dissolving (another subject all together); but the good news is pay for performance is on the rise.

In closing let me say this. I was recently accepted in a Ph.D program in Educational Leadership in North Dakota, (the best kept secret in America by the way, I know why TR fell in love with the place), and as I scanned the roster of my class mates I found a disturbing trend. Yep, you guessed it: female, female, female names. They woefully outnumbered the men. Boys, we have to buck up and do this thing if we want our place back in society back.

Get out there and read abundantly, be well informed, and make independent decisions, above all put your money where your mouth is and do something about it. To steal a phrase from the early forties, “We Can Do It!” And we must do it.

14 Brandon March 25, 2011 at 3:05 pm

@Joey K,

I am a first year teacher. I have been coaching football and baseball for about 4 years. I tend to agree with almost everything you say. Can you go into further detail on how you teach like a man? Just interested in finding a way to adjust my teaching style. I teach 7th grade Civics by the way.

Shoot me an email sometime if you get the chance:

lawsonb@mail.santarosa.k12.fl.us

15 aaron March 25, 2011 at 3:59 pm

Jon Stock wrote “Aaron, I think most of us on this site do not want to be more feminine. We want to rediscover masculinity, our own identity.”

Jon, that hits exactly on the point: “feminine” emotions are only associated with females because of our culture. the culture is confining, and that is precisely what male studies is all about. masculinity in the traditional sense is not and can not be your own identity. your identity is Jon Stock, not some idealized and stereotypical “masculine” mold.

I do think you are right about most people on this site though, and that includes the authors…. which is why i was surprised that a male studies scholar would be highlighted on AoM. “men’s rights” btw includes the right to paternity leave – which i fully support. To clarify, that means that its OK for men to nurture their children. “women” do not own nurturing. its ok to love, its ok to be tender. to me, this is something that is integral to true masculinity.

so go ahead now, call me what you will :-)

16 Mitch Somerville March 25, 2011 at 4:00 pm

I occaisonally find myself running into the somewhat insidious opinion that civilization = feminization. That men who behave as men and act with masculinity are inevitably brutal, cruel and wholly uncivilized. While there are men who are brutal and cruel, that is not masculinity, just as there are women who are manipulative, and duplicitous but these traits are not femininity.

I believe in treating men like men, and women like women (not like smaller, weaker men, with breasts). What does this mean, not much really, just acknowledging that we are different. We approach problems differently, and we have different strengths. Does that mean that women can’t or shouldn’t be Lumberjacks, or that they would have a difficult time being Lumberjacks. No it doesn’t meant that. It does mean that these postulated “Ladyjacks” would do the job differently they would leverage their unique skills and perspectives to accomplish the goal of felling, limbing and bucking a tree.

All too often I see individuals defined by the role they’ve chosen. The woman who goes into logging and becomes a lumberjack will “Butch Up” and attempt to see the world through manly martian eyes. She needn’t do that to be successful. Similarly will the Stay at Home Dad, at least as portrayed in stereotyped chariciture will take on matronly and feminine aspects. He needn’t do that be be successful either.

In the responses to this post I see and feel people’s fear. It seems there is a segment of men who feel threatened by the feminine mystique and the assertion of feminine power. From time to time I’ve been one of them. Nonetheless, I think the world will be a better place if we can let go of fear (a challenging order I admit). Our feminine counterparts are awsome, they can do things we can never imagine. Celebrating their awsomeness in no way means subjegating ourselves to them, nor does asserting our manly will mean subjagating them to us. That sort of power exchange, while quite healthy in its own right isn’t an inexorable part of gender relations and can only exist in consentual negotiated ways. In navigating this conflict between genders do not be afraid to state your case and hold your ground, but do it without accusation, and give credit where credit is due.

I learned most of what I know of masculinity and manly integrity in my youth, in the Boy Scouts of America, supplemented by a fervent passion for philosophy and reading. The conclusion that I’ve drawn from this is the belief that I can be a man of strength and character and that bringing my masculine power to bear and leveraging my strengths does nothing to diminish the incredible feminine power of my future wife and partner.

I look forward to a world where members of both genders (and indeed even the intersexed, transgendered, and androgenous) can acknowledge our differences in a non-confrontational way. A day when we can accept each others differences without percieved or imagined threats to our own identity. A day when we can draw on one another’s strengths. By escaping our fear and insecurity in our own masculine image, by accepting both who we are, and who our feminine counterparts are, by not taking the field to do battle with the combative and militaristic wing of the feminine movement but simply accepting and asserting their right to be we deny the battle and simultaneously demonstrate well executed masculine power.

17 Jon Stock March 25, 2011 at 4:48 pm

Aaron, I am not going to call you anything. It is ok if a man wants to be nurturing and loving and emotional and tender and “feminine” as defined by society (and you).

But what some people (perhaps including you) need to understand is that myself and others do not want to express these traits and are tired of being told we should. They do not come naturally to me as a man. What comes natural to me is providing (not nurturing), logic and problem solving (not expression of emotion), being tough and resilient (not tender), being honorable, compassionate, respectful, competitive, and being physical. I am not going to repress these traits any longer.

Ideal and stereotypical are very different things.

18 Jeremy March 25, 2011 at 5:04 pm

An excellent person to interview!

I think Dr. Tiger really hits the nail on the head when he says that everyone is trying to get men to open up and be more sensitive and express their feelings and that this will never succeed. And that men don’t like to be in groups. Men like to go it alone and want practical advice on life. That is why this site is so successful while stuff like the “Good Men Project,” and the groups of men who drum naked in the woods, and who think the way for men to improve is to get in touch with their feelings will never have a big following. Ditto for the men’s rights groups–men don’t like to sit around and bitch and moan.

I think Aaron either didn’t listen to the podcast or doesn’t know anything about Male Studies. But it’s definitely not about getting men to be more emotional and nurturing, nor is it about being gay or transgender. That is the purview of “Men’s studies” which already exists and which Dr. Tiger explicitly wishes to get away from.

19 John March 25, 2011 at 5:18 pm

We could solve all this by repealing the nineteenth amendment. Non of these problems existed before 1920. Getting in touch with your so called feminine side is about as far away as you can get from masculine. Those comments just show how wimpy the modern male society has become. Next they’ll be wanting to wear dresses and thats not manly nor is wearing girls makeup. LOL!

20 aaron March 25, 2011 at 5:25 pm

what i was trying to get at is that its perfectly fine for you to be tough and resilient and all that (what Jon said, basically), but by trying to say that those are the only acceptable ways to be a “man” is doing other people a disservice. jon, to use your word, it’s not about repression, but about full expression.

i learned what i know about male studies from a sociologist professor. If that doesn’t line up with Tiger’s ideas, it just means that it’s a broad field. some men might really enjoy drumming naked in the woods. just because jeremy likes AoM much more doesn’t mean that it drumming in the woods doesnt work for them.

21 creesto March 25, 2011 at 5:56 pm

I am 50 years old. I am far and away the more active parent (as in actively engaging and shaping my boys) when compared to my wife and my ex, and also when compared to most of my male peers. I have struggled all my life with decisions made by me to do what I wanted rather than do what seemed easy and what everyone else was doing. I have raised my boys with integrity, love, affection, intelligence, emotional warmth, fun, and with an eye always on acting right: good sportsmanship, standing up for the weak, treating girls and adults with respect, and always standing firm on what you believe is right, even if it means suffering consequences. My sons reflect those values very well, and I would not change a thing about our lives together. I am appalled at the comments that bemoan the social progress women have made. To be afraid of strong women, feminine men or showing one’s feeling openly does not strike me as being the least bit manly at all. I am ashamed for those that think that way. And I also hold it to be a personal manly trait that my faith is my own private affair, not a political stump from which to scream for the Good Ol’ Days.

22 Jon Stock March 25, 2011 at 6:43 pm

I understand that some men wish to express themselves and their emotions fully and they should be able to. Feminists have no monopoly on certain ways of expression.

However, my emotions are my own and I do not feel the need to express them. I work through them in my own way.

What I am trying to say is that people have no place telling me what to express and I find the idea that men should be more feminine in that way or any other offensive. Feminism can not and should not be used as a model to study men or as a way to teach the future generations of men how to function in society.

There needs to be a masculinism that is equal to feminism so that we can have a more stable and open society for both genders.

I am a scientist and a graduate student. Looking from that lens, I find the entire field of sociology to be ambiguous. Men’s and women’s studies included. A whole lot of theories, but no empirical way to prove any of them.

23 Kevin March 25, 2011 at 10:02 pm

I think that in the final analysis the biggest problem is that we are all lying to ourselves about what we as people and as a society need right now. We aren’t producing the skilled factory workers who could make us an advanced manufacturing power again, but by God we pump out TONS of communications majors or undecided business majors who will end up in the bottom end of the service industry with student debt out the wazoo.

Similarly, in relationships men and women are told that if they are good and enlightened and middle class and liberal they will seek an “equal” relationship in which both sides share every piece of information, every responsibility and every right. Girls are made to think that if they aren’t looking for equality they are weak, stupid and incapable fending for themselves; boys are made to feel like cavemen if they try to take charge.

Relationships aren’t meant to be equal. I’m not sure how Art of Manliness would feel about Roissy, he’s the unemployed alcoholic uncle to AoM’s clean cut scoutmaster, but I started reading his stuff while working on a paper for class and I’m increasingly finding myself agreeing with him. I’m not comfortable with a lot of what he does, and some of his conclusions just about make my stomach turn. But I’ve very rarely been able to prove him wrong in my experience with women. Women are turned on by displays of dominance and masculinity, they don’t want to be in charge in a relationship. Oh sure, they may WANT to be, but they won’t actually enjoy said relationship. Once we realize this, men are free to be men again.

24 John March 26, 2011 at 9:19 am

I also think part of the issue is that people seem to take on societies accepted view of “strong men = fear of strong women or wanting women in the kitchen.” I tried teaching a bit, and decided to stay away from elementary schools when during one of my first weeks I was asked by more than one person why “I” would want to be around kids, these are the same people who watched me and basically stayed around the kids whenever we weren’t in the classroom. So I got away from teaching.
And it isn’t a fear of strong women, let them be as strong as they want, let them achieve all they want and all they can because that is great. However, on the flip side, it shouldn’t always come at the expense of men, and we see here the results.
We still have people teaching their boys not to hit girls, but nobody tells the girls the same, boys are constantly throughout school being told to be “be like the girls” or basically told they aren’t good enough, so at high school age? They just give up on thinking and follow whatever TV tells them to be, instead of thinking for themselves. Their entire educational career is telling them to stop being themselves and bashing them because all of society’s problem are the “man’s” fault. College is quickly turning into women only areas, male sports are constantly being cut, and when any mention of turning affirmative action comes up? “Men don’t work hard enough, they could do it if they wanted” which are the same arguments that were made when women were the underdogs, but since it is men? It is fine, because instead of being fair it is time for the pendulum to swing and men to suffer for years because male suffering is okay in the eyes of the world if it is noticed at all. From an actual news story that ran here, by the way: “This just in, 22 women shot” “And on this sad day, 22 women were shot by terrorists while getting off the plane” no mention at all that 57 people were actually shot, and the other 35 people? Men. I didn’t actually know that anyone but the 22 women were shot until I read an article pointing it out. >_<
Again, success of men doesn't need to come at the expense of women, just some equality in school would go along way to allowing men to be men when they get older. And by the by, to many people call anyone who speaks about men succeeding as woman-haters, but I don't like weak people and I wouldn't wish the damsel in distress ideal on anyone as I absolutely hate that kind of person. Whereas, I would love my nieces and nephews to read this site, because the info here is useful for everyone, even if it is simply to see how the other side should be.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a subject I keep running across in many places so I get a bit worked up over it. ^_^

25 Jon Stock March 26, 2011 at 9:54 am

John, you are mostly correct but I do not think most of society even knows how much young men in our education system are being mistreated. They are so focused on getting women to be successful that they do not even notice the other half of the human race.

There are some people speaking out, but I honestly don’t think feminists will see the damage they have caused by this kind of favoritism until it is too late. The change comes with future generations. Feminists don’t realize the extent of the change because old men are still the leaders. However, young men are the losers.

In the next 30-40 years when the old generation of feminists are dead, the unforeseen consequences will become apparent. Women will have become the favored majority in business, politics, higher education and even science. Men will have become, well, you know.

26 Matt C March 26, 2011 at 11:44 am

I didn’t listen to podcast, but as a High School Teacher it is blatantly clear that not enough young men are taking hold and asserting what they want out of life. They lack motivation, direction, and an outlet for frustration and competitiveness in the school system at the primary level in the classroom.

Most are raised without fathers to demonstrate what being a man is. This is a cyclical decline in fatherhood and thus masculinity. Men gave up responsibility for their children, those young boys grew up without fathers and found success by acting in a more feminized manner etc…

By the time they get to high school they have either disengaged, joined a gang, or have such low grades that they cannot compete in the only outlet available to them – sports. I for one do not want to glorify gang culture, but the system of gangs is very successful in recruiting young men. I think that is because it offers an outlet for male masculinity outside of grades and monetary requirements. The gangs feed the stigma that masculinity is bad because they do not offer solid values and the young boys don’t comit to the responsibility of fatherhood and the cycle continues. “We are a generation of men raised by women” (Tyler Durton).

Just giving my observations, do not have any suggestions. But I know many male teachers who have gotten into the profession to help america’s young men. It is discouraging though that a primary teacher was mad to feel that they should not be there…

27 Edin March 26, 2011 at 12:12 pm

To aaron [comment 8]: It’s not OK to be homosexual and male. I can witness it firsthand. I was a homosexual (bisexual more precisely). Homosexuality is incompatible with true manhood. Homosexuality is contrary to every man’s true nature and it’s something incompatible with their core being. While a gay man may consciously accept his condition, on the deepest levels of self, such an identity is ultimately irreconcilable. Everyone interested in topic can visit numerous ex-gay web sites. Here are only two:
peoplecanchange.com
gaytostraight.org

28 Drew Garrison March 26, 2011 at 1:33 pm

I agree with Dr. Tiger that these problems do exist. However, his points on how we should address them goes against what I believe it means to really be a man. As men we do not need college courses or any special attention that reminds us that we are men. The one thing we must energize ourselves to do is to get up and “get shit done.” If you got up everyday and strove to “get shit done” and form a good life for yourself, you would not have the time to let the boogey woman feminist get you down. You don’t need to ask for permission or announce your every move in this life. Decide for yourself and act. When I see articles like this, it makes me sick that all we are becoming is complainers or worse, men who ask too much permission.

To get back on track as men, I encourage everyone here to try and be decent towards your fellow man. The lack of decency among men is the real cancer that has taken our eye off the ball. I’m all about being a gentleman towards women but we have to remember how to help out our guys. Try to have a real conversation with one of your male friends this week and not just shout random things merely competing for air space.

Now I will step off my soap box. Cheers

29 Pissed. March 26, 2011 at 3:49 pm

I think the best way to deal with these ladies and it is already happening. There was a book about “Manning UP” where this author was so pissed off that men are now too interested in videogames than the opposite sex. I leave headstrong women who want thier cake and to eat it too; in the hands of the men who will beat the PISS out of them every night till they get the hint that MR. NICE GUY might acctually be the ones they should be looking for 1st. Like any group who needs to grow the hell up they women who look for the BAD BOY need Grandma, Mom, and Big sister all telling from the mountain top that her adollecent first responce to chace after that thug might not be the best of ideas.

30 David March 27, 2011 at 10:16 am

Having two sons myself, I see the current trend for emasculation of our children almost every day. My older boy goes to a religious day school, where he has been actively discouraged to act in a ways that would be perfectly normal for a young male child to act. Behavior that would seem pefectly normal during my childhood, has now become “troubling” issues for the women who run our school. I am in a constant struggle with them over what they see as “hyperactivity” and I see as normal, confident juvenile male behavior.
Little boys run, yell, hit, punch and othewise assert their maleness, as they learn how and when to control such behavior. Through discipline, our male children learn how to focus and harness their energy in a productive manner. How can we assure the survival of our nation, which was founded by men who knew how to be men, when we have allowed our nation to involuntarily emasculate our children. And then the women have the audacity to complain that men aren’t masculine enough.
As a father I have strived to show how a man should be, by doing and acting as such. I have flown jet aircraft, used tools, driven fast cars, and hacked computers. I have also cooked, cleaned, done laundry and changed diapers. A man must know how these things are done, and not feel threatened if he has to do them, but to surrender our manhoods because our women feel threatened by those attitudes engendered by the dirfferentaion of the sexes is shear folly.

31 Elliott Katz March 27, 2011 at 12:48 pm

We can blame the feminists,but that won’t change anything. We can change how men are treated by changing ourselves to start acting like strong, manly men. When I was researching my book, Being the Strong Man A Woman Wants (which I had the pleasure of discussing with Brett in another podcast. If you’re able to listen to it, please do) I was startled by the number of men who not only did not know that a man’s job is to share leadership in his home, but actually argued against me. Why don’t they know what a man’s jobis? They grew up without strong male role models to show them what it means to be a man. As men who have learned what it means to be a man, we have to teach other men that it is a man’s job to show leadership, make decisions and take responsibility. Blaming the feminists and anybody else doesn’t matter because we, as men, are responsible for what goes on in our homes. As more men start acting like strong, manly men, the world around us will change. Just watch.

32 Brent Buchanan March 27, 2011 at 12:53 pm

I find some of these posts to be abhorrent. I listened to the first 30 seconds of this broadcast and had heard enough. The decline of men? Please. Men through the entire course of history to the present have obtained and maintained power. There is no decline of that in any foreseeable future. Now, i am not saying this is for good or for bad, but what I am saying is that there have been some very negative externalities that have been wrought by this “maintenance of power” if you will.

Women, having been subjugated to the whims of men for ages, finally are having a say, finally have a vote, but still do not even have equality. Professional women make less than men across the board, are chosen less for committees and are disproportionately underrepresented in politics; and when women are finally given an opportunity to better themselves, to be independent from men, we see it as frightening? Women do better in college and make more money than men in “some” areas, and suddenly we are falling behind? Women are still playing catch-up.

Men are no more falling behind than women are steadily trying to improve. But the strangest thing about the part of the podcast that i listened to was that it was not about a decline of morality in general, but a “decline” of men in comparison to women. We should be praising the fact that women are doing better, not fearing it. We should not look at ourselves as the cause, but look at women as their own catalyst; they took advantage of opportunities that were available and kept at it, and as commendable as their actions are (truly, i mean women are incredible), they still get the shaft when it comes to equal status. Not only that, but this podcast, and many posts here, are offering a response by trying to “strengthen our manliness” or something of that sort, by offering “Men Studies” as a legitimate subject and rendering us as some powerless minority/ victim/ threatened sex.

Let me tell you how it is: Men are not declining in power, social status, ability to achieve, they are only declining from some short of a perceived golden era of mutual respect for the opposite sex, and some antiquated moral self-respect as well. I believe that this is to be seen as true in some posts here, where some are saying that “women should be put in their place” and “bring manliness back” and “we need to have balls”. What misogynistic comments What an utter lack of morality.

Men, as I see it, need not hark back to olden days where men were “grand” and exuded this false sense of manliness that you see in the movies, that you see portrayed in the concept of “ideal” manliness in the minds of many here that have been misled. Manliness is not simply some dutiful, provider hunter-fisher type who shaves with a straight edge and, according to some posters, one who makes his woman stay in the kitchen. Manliness is not something that is in decline, nor should be compared to the situation of women. Manliness, which by definition is accepting gender roles, is something much more general.

Manliness should not really be thought of as exclusive to males, but should be thought of as a more specific form of general morality. It is not about being a man, it is about being a good person. It is not about providing, it is about giving or giving back. It is not about simply recognizing differences or looking at a situation from only your standpoint, it is about trying to understand all viewpoints. It is not about improving men, it is about improving society. When it boils down to it, many, both men and women, have been in decline moralistically. Now we live in a society that is inherently about “I”, not us. Men need not compete with women, we need to work with them, embrace their progress and success, and help them, as well as ourselves, to improve collectively.

33 Pissed. March 27, 2011 at 1:33 pm

To put it bluntly till Women can start reproduction A-sexually and with enough bio-diversity to thwart off pesty things say things like plauges they are stuck with us. When “Men” become harder and harder to find in the sea of ManBoys the rarity and scarcity will have women foaming at the mouths for every last one of us they can scrouge to find. I bide my time thank you very much. MEN who are looking at the lopsided arrangments of modern coupling with malcontent at the growing population of ladies who care less for them and more about the size of the pocketbook they own. Every women I have talked to have arrogently look at me like a wallet with legs. They are wanting an ecconomic equal but an uneaven emotional and social agreement so I have all sent the packing. Good men are hard to find indeed bacause those who have everything have no need for women who have just as much but demand 1/2 or more when they get bored and leave a possible marrage. Prenups are simply a nessesity these days. Casual sex before marrage will get you on the hook, NOT her so while I am dating, I’m not screwing around.

34 Robert Weedall March 27, 2011 at 5:11 pm

Wow, I have more respect for Doctor Jeckyll than this clown.

And this comment section is really blinkin’ vitriolic for this site, the active woman blaming, the histeronics about religion and culture, the desperate “won’t somebody please think of the children” and naked bitching about how it’s all someone elses fault is just absolutely pathetic.

35 Punditus Maximus March 28, 2011 at 5:02 pm

I’m amused by the protestations that a man is defined by hatred and domination of women.

Good luck with that, fellas. I’m sure your daughters will adore you.

36 Naomi March 29, 2011 at 12:36 am

Interesting discussion going on that brings up some questions: Well, what does it mean to be a man, or a woman? And are we just balking at different, changing molds that define us? Do we even need these molds? And why is it so important for us to define ourselves, why cannot we just BE?

37 John March 30, 2011 at 12:02 pm

Just for those, like Pissed, who say that men will be needed as long as women want to have children. I point you to: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-prospect-of-allfemale-conception-444464.html

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/health/NATL-Synthetic-Sperm.html and so forth. Men really aren’t wanted in this world, and it is getting more and more obvious. Again, I say just stand up and do what is right, and try to be the best that we can be to show the world that the words “all men are dogs” isn’t acceptable, and constantly judging half of the human race by what they see on TV, or the guy who dumped them. Again, this isn’t so much about women as the government, the constant war on male role-models by TV channels such as Disney where it is simply not done to have a competent male lead. The family court system doesn’t help by constantly removing fathers, and again the school system which punishes maleness.

All in all, there needs to be a change.. a non-violent change that will eventually occur, whether certain organizations want it to or not, and to that end we need websites like this and for men to be ready to again be the men they must be for the sake of future males.

38 Mike March 30, 2011 at 12:33 pm

In response to a misinformed commenter:
The U.S. is a nation of religious freedom and tolerance.
It was not ever a nation ruled by, belonging to or devoted to any one religion.
The Constitution and Declaration are on the internet and can be reviewed very easily.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”
Check it out some time.

I rarely comment like this – but I have two hot-button issues – man bashing, and the wrongheaded idea that the U.S. is a “Christian Nation.”
Sorry for the rant all.

39 banneker77 April 7, 2011 at 7:57 pm

What isn’t good for men isn’t good for woman either! I know that most women want to be married and have kids someday, but not all. Even though in the past, men started being roughshod over women and not at all nice, the women had standards- I would HATE for my daughter to join the MARINES since work like that belongs to MEN ONLY (the systems of women are more delicate PMS on some, and their knees come at odd angles because of hips; the little surfer girl is unusual). What I see happening is, in Highschools, or where there is groups of teens out, the guys aren’t being close to their girlfriends-wouldn’t want my daughter to be with a guy that wont at least try to be affectionate;although he may be scared of ME–a wimpy boy wouldn’t protect my daughter when need be, and please, don’t have your daughters drive their ‘dates’ around town because it looks bad..You know what I think? women in the past ‘pretended’ not to know how to do certain things so we guys would be helpful, and isn’t that what makes life worth living?

40 banneker77 April 7, 2011 at 8:18 pm

I would not like to see the future of this nation or other western nations, that would squander it’s masculinity with some, its already gone (may have to keep my 2nd amendment when some fool yells Allah Akbar)–I hope I don’t see my baby daughter having to share a boyfriend since she likes guys that seem sure of themselves, not just dudes on videogames while she brings home all the bacon, since she is a CEO and they have kids under 5. This generation of girls and guys seem ok on what is going on BUT what about FUTURE GENERATIONS. Girls could fight, take care of themselves, etc. but MOST wont want to share a boyfriend with another girl if there isn’t no strong sure men around-some of you guys seem to be raising upright boys and I commend you for that, but what about others; I’m thinking about being a mentor for some boys who don’t have dads

41 Benjamin in Australia April 13, 2011 at 10:02 pm

Even though Dr. Tiger’s rhetoric is sometimes militant and aggressive, I think he makes quite clear the inequality in services and support for men and boys in the west. The issue about Ritalin is a very frightening one and I agree that schools and universities in Australia, as well as the US, favour an approach to masculinity which fails to support or encourage and instead punishes or “medicates”. Overwhelming guilt is a feeling I think a lot of young men, like myself, feel about our own masculinity, and this attitude is fostered by those systems of education in which we are “nurtured” (confined) for 12 of the most formative and influential years of our life. It takes an outstanding parent or teacher to keep a boy from developing this feeling towards his sex. I think if we are to achieve an equality between the sexes (economic, social, political) then we need to have male studies programs and more support for men and boys.

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