There has lately been a definite dearth of articles on every pundit’s favorite thoroughly beaten dead horse of a subject: “What’s wrong with men?” But Dr. Peggy Drexler fills the void with an article on the Huffington Post.
The article actually starts out with some interesting facts. To wit:
- A study of 5,000 American adults found that more men are interested in attachment and commitment, while more women wanted to preserve some of their independence in a relationship.
- Half of single men 21 to 35 wanted kids, where for women in that age group, the number was 46 percent.
- A 2007 survey by the employment website Monster.com found that 70 percent of fathers would consider being a stay at home parent if money were no object.
Good fodder for discussion there, but the rest of the article is blather about how being committed in a relationship and being more involved as fathers can either be seen as men become more feminized or more liberated and humanized. Leaving out the third option: being committed to your wife and kids makes you more manly, not less so.
And then the doctor includes the requisite insult towards men always found in this type of article by saying:
“While some wail over the declining state of manhood implied by the statistics, there is also the very real possibility that men are evolving from swaggering through life in some cartoon interpretation of what men are supposed to be — to becoming more fully-formed human beings free to find out what they can be.”
As always, the authors of these article locate manliness in superficialities as opposed to character and virtue.
But anyway, I actually wanted to post about this because there were a couple of real gems in the comments:
Fernando said:
“The problem is twofold: masculine energy has to be “curved” to be accepted by society and men have gone along with it. We’ve allowed this sorry idea to be a social paradigm: masculine energy = rape, mayhem and ignorance while female energy = love, nurturing and intelligence. The shadow-side of one VS the evolved side of the other. Women want men to be more like women and then complain there are no “real” men out there. The whole thing is ridiculous.”
A very insightful point here: so often we compare the best of women to the worst of men. And of course men then always come out the losers.
And I loved this quote from a user named “Tresco:”
“A society that despises its men gets despicable men.”
Read the whole article on HuffPo: “Are Men What They Used to Be?”
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{ 27 comments… read them below or add one }
Great points all around.
I find it interesting that so much of what defines us as men comes from people that are trying to sell us something.
And how totally clueless they are when it comes to real men.
So often articles look at masculinity as and femininity as a spectrum where each rests at the opposite side. It stands to reason that as one becomes less masculine they are more feminine. I would disagree. I think we should evaluate men and women on their own terms. Trying to box everyone is always problematic. I think we value attributes more than umbrella categories. So that is to say we value honesty, courage, humility, we don’t value masculinity or femininity in the abstract. The more we detach attributes from these umbrella categories and let men and women realize what it means to them uniquely, we create these “fully formed human beings.”
Statistics like these often are used to “feminize” men who want these things. Can’t that me a uniquely masculine attribute too? Can’t a feminist want to stay home with kids as much as she wants to run a company?
“As always, the authors of these article locate manliness in superficialities as opposed to character and virtue.”
Good point.
I’ve honestly lost interest in articles like these mainly because of the points you’ve already stated. I honestly question the role men will play as our society continues to develop. To Fernando’s point, we do get coerced by society to play down some of our more natural traits, but in doing so – we lose ourselves in a sense.
I agree with what you say about character and virtue – but these aren’t the things that people notice about Men in general anymore. Nope – not unless you’re extremely high on some pole thereof (e.g. Dirk Nowitzki = loyal & honorable; LeBron James = arrogant & opportunistic). If you’re just a balanced guy – it almost cancels itself out and then you’re left with the superficial points of masculinity and a patriarchal society that a lot of people will say they don’t want anymore…
Sorry for the book – just my two cents on some valid points you brought up. Great quote from Tresco btw.
I’ve been saying this sort of thing for years. For those who regularly attend worship, many will recognize what I’m saying. On Mother’s Day, we hear how great mothers are, how they, like Jesus walk on water, all three forms, solid, liquid and gaseous water.
On Father’s day, we hear how men are not there, how they don’t measure up, and how they need to step up their game.
The truth is men are there. By and large, it’s not men who are ending marriages. Only one in three or four divorces are sought by men. That means the other two out of three, or three out of four depending on the studies you read are initiated by women.
So are men abandoning their families, or are women simply throwing out their husbands? Given that men and women participate in affairs and other marital misconduct in statistically equal numbers. (Unless anyone is suggesting men are having affairs with other men, the fact is if a man or woman is having an affair, it’s with someone of the opposite sex, keeping the representation in that despicable behavior equal with respect to gender.)
Character is not a gender trait. Folks of bad character are equally represented by both men and women.
Be a man, one you would be proud to have as your father. But also call out those who continually spread the lie that men don’t care, or they are not as well equipped for relationship, or whatever.
They may not care about the same aspects, and may have a different approach. But that doesn’t mean they don’t care. They simply focus on different aspects. Not better, not worse, just different.
It takes the balance and valuing of the relative strengths of both men and women to build a strong, cohesive family.
So when you see a group of divorced men, two-thirds to three-quarters of them didn’t want the divorce they got, and could do nothing to stop it. So are men really abandoning their families, or are they being forced out by wives who are using the court system to break a vow they made and keep him from his children except every other weekend and maybe two weeks in the summer while she goes off and chases after another man she hopes will complete her?
Why don’t we hear the pastor preaching to these women on Mother’s Day questioning why they are kicking out husbands, the majority of which didn’t beat, didn’t cheat, have jobs and care for their families?
Dr Willard Harley of Marriage Builders had found in his working with couples that women who are abused or betrayed are NOT the ones choosing divorce. He cannot convince such women to choose a divorce. The women choosing divorce are divorcing men who are faithful and not abusive.
I think the lies we’ve seen about how men don’t get it, are not there, etc simply fuel an entitlement mentality and in some cases, that entitlement is manifested in the vast majority of divorces we see filed today.
The pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction. God have mercy on us as we continue to devalue and blame men for all of societies woes.
I happened to be listening to “Men” by Loudon Wainwright III when this article popped up. A very touching song of a mans role in our grandfathers’ world. It seemed appropriate to post a link: http://youtu.be/f_VMxDkapN0
I was a stay-at-home dad for the first 2 years of our first child’s life. I wouldn’t trade that for anything. My wife was better employed at the time, and the pregnancy was unexpected. So we adapted. Money doesn’t have to be “no object” for dads to stay home.
Critics of men have long waved the trope about how men weren’t involved in their kids lives, historically. However, it turns out that Charles Ingalls wasn’t so unique. Studies of diaries from the 1800s identify men who cared for and cared about their children. They played, they snuggled, and they taught. You know what else was in the diaries? Love for their wives.
People who want to criticize fathers in industrialized societies for not being home and involved need to realize that industrialization played a major part in pulling men out of the daily home and away from their wives and kids. On an hour-per-hour basis, men still do more hours of “work” than women, but less of it at home.
But some want to act as if “working hard and providing an income for your family in a post-industrial, commercial society” is a bad thing. Sheesh.
what a tired subject. i would like to avoid seeming childish with an immediate pointing of the finger to the other side, but seriously, men’s apparently numerous faults never seem to be overshadowed by the catastrophe that is the modern woman, im not curious as to why, as the landslide of these articles are derived from the same reasoning, however its sad that men cannot even argue our own side or point without finding themselves reflecting the image imposed on us. feels like a trap. honestly, as often as i run into boys of all ages that still haven’t figured out what it is to be a man, which is often lets be honest, i have rarely met a woman with a clear sense of much, or a good head on her shoulders. im just surprised we allow so much of a beat down on us men, with the other end just as bad, if not in worse shape.
I don’t have the primary source for this, but I heard (from a good researcher) that before the 1900′s (maybe a little earlier than that), universally, child rearing books were addressed to fathers. It wasn’t until the industrial age kicked into full swing that providing for the family “required” men to leave their homes and abdicate role of training their children to the wife.
I’m in a desk job right now, but I’m working and planning (WITH my wife!) to get our property turned into a sustainable, organic farm that would allow me to be a full time husband-father-farmer-homeEducator.
It’s the fault of those who have allowed our culture to bend this way, but it’s sad that more families don’t want to be together – with lots of children! We’ve been blessed with four so far, and hopefully more are coming. I HATE mondays – I have to leave my wife and children behind! Why don’t more have that attitude?!?! (that’s a rehtorical question!)
And this is why this website exists, to counter articles designed to bait with honest advice and good writing. Thank you again Mr. McKay.
I am currently a work-at-home father. I’m both a writer/editor and I get the extreme privilege of caring for my son day-in and day-out.
Money doesn’t have to be an object. I’m not rich. And some months things are really tight, but it is all completely worth it to know that I’m building an awesome relationship with my son. It certainly saves a bit of money on gas and childcare.
And, frankly, it’s a lot of fun.
Maybe they want us to act like men but say womanly and sensitive things while we do it. I’ve gotten away with tons of craziness by making people laugh while I do it.
Sure, there are certain labels that seem manly like soldier or factory worker, but when it really comes down to it, I believe manliness is specific to each situation. Most of us who had fathers looked up to them. Whatever it was they did, seemed manly to us. My dad always had rough whiskers, and a thick mustache unless it was Sunday. Throughout my life he busted his butt as a carpenter, foreman of a mine, farmer, and factory worker. In all of these moments, he was manly to me, and I wanted to be like him. However, he was doing all this to take care of us, (the mustache and whiskers were just a result of hard work.) Some men, now days do the same work, with the same manly swagger, but go home after having spent all their money on beer and smokes while their kids waste away. (NOT MANLY) But, being a priss who can’t even teach his kid how to change a tire or mow a yard doesn’t work for me either. Again, I am speculating about what is manly to me. I’m sure there are a great number of manly men out there who’s stories don’t resemble my father’s. Long story short, the term manliness is relative to person and situation. We won’t ever see what we think is true manliness because it’s a different definition for every individual.
I think that characterizing men and women on such shallow terms is reckless. I believe that it speaks volumes on a man who will maintain integrity and loyalty in a relationship and a father who is present in his children’s lives. I believe that if we look at some great men in history (Tedddy Roosevelt, General Jackson, General Lee) we will see men who valued marriage and children. Leave it to today’s pathetic counterfeit of masculinity to ignore that it takes a real man to maintain his responsibilities and want more for himself. A real man has honor, discipline, compassion, integrity, faith. What you do in your life from day to day pales in comparison to your CHARACTER.
While there are many reports out there about how terrible men & women seem to be according to society’s standards (in USA, anyway), I highly doubt it’s the majority. The loudest and most obnoxious get the attention normally, while the good willed and balanced human being is lost among them or not talked about because they’ve done nothing wrong. People love to create problems that are not actually there to make up for their own personal issues they refuse to work on, let alone acknowledge. If there is no news or drama to be had, it is not worth talking about to most people today since it is considered boring and not fast paced with instant gratification coming. It’s exactly why reality TV took off so quickly and our sense of values and good nature is declining.
Most social networking is making this occur at an accelerated rate, and while it is incredibly helpful for us to communicate a little faster, it is also making us socially stupid, so to speak. Hard work doesn’t pay off as much anymore as cheating or acting like the biggest dumb ass humanly possible does now. We pay more for entertainment than we do for education, and until these two get balanced out or switched in terms of priority, this will continue to rise until it crashes down on itself and we start over again.
Every single day I try to be a man for my son and my daughters, but mostly for their mother. I try to show my son that a man loves his spouse and respects her. I try to show my daughters that a man can be depended on for protection and providing. I try to show them that a man is more than the idiot in the sitcom that is always wrong. I can kiss a boo boo just as easily as any woman out there. That does not make me any less a man. I can also present a stiff whack on the hind side if needed. That does not make me any more a man. It is hard work to be a man and sometimes I fail. I’m sure it is every bit as hard to be a woman. Truth is I can’t worry about what the Huffington Post thinks a man should be. I am too busy trying to teach my children about tolerance, compassion, ethics, social awareness, nature, family……
From experience, I know when my single girlfriends ask: Where are all the real men are? They do mean: Where are the men with good character and virtue? They also def. don’t want the men to be more like women. They want them to to have good character and virtue along with traits such as be strong, mature, communicative, loyal, loving, and dedicated to them but not so much it’s suffocating. Those are always key when it comes to real men in a woman’s eyes: Good character and Virtue. Period.
@Ben Hastings:I don’t have a primary source on hand either, but that doesn’t stop me from pontificating in my field of professional study (family life).
The reality is that it used to be assumed that the father would take the role on disciplining and instructing his children in the way he wanted them to live, and punishing them when they misbehaved. He would be involved daily in their life and upbringing, because their failures would reflect poorly on him. If the blacksmith couldn’t control his children, could you trust him to repair your wagon?
The other reality is that much of our assumptions about what parents should do come form an upper class history. Those who had the means to write and study family life had money. Even if academics themselves weren’t wealthy, being wealthy is what people aspired to be, and those with money became the standard by which others evaluated themselves (and others).
It’s hard to live up to a standard that few can really afford currently.
(Don’t get me wrong. I’m not against wealth. I’m simply annoyed by the way some pundits bloviate about how those without it aren’t worthy of being fathers or husbands.)
@ Stev D – right on.
If men where always what they should be we would never be questioning if we were what we used to be. I.E. the value system we idealize is not being passed down properly. I only hope I can be a good example for my two girls.
There are no good women left. They are preached to that they are princesses and guys are their to serve them. Guys are now taught to be nice, sit in class and behave like the girls. The fact of the matter is society will always need the skills of guys to fix stuff. How many female engineers do you see? I am not saying they can’t do the work, they don’t want to. We are hands on and always will be. Rupert Murdoch and every other senior business leader drug before a congressional body has illustrated that there is a severe lack of leadership in the world. The real problem lies within Disney, WE, and Oprah. WE is the worst – its television on how to kill your husband.
My wife left me – and I am a better man for it. Halaluya. She was selfish. I am not convinced there is a good woman out anymore.
@John, keep the faith! We exist.
@Stev D, awesome!
In celebration of the masculine, Paul Bunyan and the deep Tarzan in each of you~
Keep Rockin It!
I like these 2 characters not for their portrayal, but their motivation~they lived from their gut and it was right on the money. Maybe its just about getting in to the deep grit of what is true to YOU and living it, despite the huffington post, an African jungle or chainsaws battling you and your blue ox. If you own it, it’ll catch on.
So will the women. The good ones that is <3
Men were adversely effected by the “Women’s Rights” movement. A lot of women don’t want men to be men, they want a yes man, an emasculate girlfriend.
What I want to know is, where are the writers out there penning articles in favour of men? It isn’t as though women control the publishing world. Sure, it is great that we have enclaves like AoM here, but seriously, where is our representation in the mainstream media. Surely there is at least one person on this site in journalism that could maybe start the ball rolling?
As a teacher in the public schools, I agree entirely with what John says (at least about the expectations of boys in schools if not about the disappearance of decent women). There is quite a bit of research out there about how boys are being alienated in school from the earliest ages. (I don’t have the actual research on me at the moment but I do know it was done correctly with a large sample of children over and extended period of time). A lot of it has to do with the overwhelming number of female teachers and their tendency to teach the way they themselves learned best (aka the way girls learn best).
However, one other example that has stuck with me comes from the playground. Boys like to pretend fight–pretty much every boy (and even some girls including myself when I was younger) does that. But in my current school and the last district where I taught, play fighting is against the rules. In fact, it is enough to hold the child in from recess and even cause for suspension if it occurs more than 3 times. The reasoning behind it is because it promotes aggression and might “scare” somebody. The research, on the other hand, shows that the boys are not acting out aggressive tendencies, but are acting out their ideas of valor and heroism. It’s pretty obvious if you think of it; they always choose to be the superhero–wouldn’t they choose to be the villain if they just wanted to be aggressive be scary? So, since this kind of play is prohibited, what exactly are we teaching our boys with that rule? It is wrong to be brave and be a hero. What a terrible lesson to learn.
However I do have a solution to many of the problem boys are facing in school and it’s a pretty simple one.
Colleges should start giving scholarships specifically to men who major in elementary education. That should increase the number of men in the elementary schools. If you get more men working with younger children, there is no harm to the girls and the boys benefit tremendously from it, specifically in an increase in male role models and with teacher who teach in a way the boys can understand. To make this even better, the research shows that the girls in the study could learn just as well from a teacher of either gender, so they should not have any issues.
Sorry for the long-winded reply.
Shannon,
As I begin my final year of my elementary ed degree, I can appreciate your post to a great degree.
One reason I could see for the rules against play fighting is that it is hard to tell when fighting is play or not from a distance. Supervisory staff would be continuously checking up on those boys who look like thay are fighting. Nothat this is the ultimate argument against it, just another side.
I too wish for scholarships directed at men entering primary education at university, but I do not think the milieu will change any time soon for the pedophile/general creep stigma that seems to plague men teaching the lower grades—which is a whole other societal issue. No one thinks women teaching middle and high school are there just to seduce boys…
How can one succeed when one doesn’t know one’s purpose?
How can we understand what a man should look like unless we understand what a man was created to be?
It is the purpose of a man which needs to be understood, and the heart (heart = coeur = core). It is easy to misdiagnose a root illness if surface symptoms are the only things being observed.
In all the possible ways that humanity could have existed, we find ourselves in two flavors: Man and woman.
Often, the term “the opposite sex” is used to refer to the one that you’re not. But I find this to be misleading and damaging. Misleading because we’re not anything approaching “opposite”. Both eat, both breathe. Both can enjoy games, hiking, listening to music, going on road trips, etc. If men and women were simply opposites, it would be a lot simpler. Damaging because the term fosters an understanding that men and women are in opposition to each other, as if there was a battle. This is an entirely unhelpful perception.
I prefer “complementary gender”. The more I observe men and women, the more I see how amazingly complementary we are physically, emotionally, physiologically, etc. “Gender” helps me to have a better understanding of the utility and function of both. And the phrase in general helps to replace the perception of “opposing/sides” with a “complement/team” mindset.
We (men and women) are inextricably connected. I believe that an accurate understanding of what a man should be cannot happen without an understanding of the context of how men and women were designed to function together.
My Dad is amazing! My view of men was shaped by the way he fathered us. Yes my mother was there too, but this article is about men. I learned modesty, respect and hard work from my dad. He was definitely the strong silent type, with THREE daughters that didn’t last long…he softened, a little. I don’t expect men I date to be just like my Dad, but do know what I deserve and the way he raised me has alot to do with that.
I think there are good men and women out there, but we live in a time of selfishness and loose moral character. Unfortunately we may meet our fill of crappy people before we meet the person who really shines. Hopefully by then we aren’t too bumped and bruised to notice.