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Art of Manliness Podcast #53: Experimenting With Your Life with A.J. Jacobs

In today’s episode I talk to A.J. Jacobs, editor-at-large at Esquire Magazine [1], writer of several bestsellers (including The Year of Living Biblically [2] and Drop Dead Healthy [3]), and a self-proclaimed human guinea pig [4]. He’s now a contributor to Upwave [5]. A.J. and I discuss some of the crazy experiments he’s done with his life, the comic hijinks that ensued with them, and how they made him a better man.

Show highlights:
  • How A.J. started with experimenting with his life
  • The secret to changing your mindset that he learned from following every single one of the 700+ rules in the Bible for an entire year
  • How trying to be the world’s best husband made him miserable but how it improved his relationship with his wife at the same time
  • Why every man should experiment with his life
  • And much more!

Listen to the Podcast!

Find us on Stitcher [6]

Special thanks to Keelan O’Hara [7] for editing the podcast!

Read the Transcript

Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness podcast. Now what do you think your life would be like if you try to live every single one of the more than 700 laws and commandments in the Bible. I’m not talking about the Ten Commandments but like those small ones that are Leviticus and that get a passing line.

Or how about if you try to read every single page of the Encyclopedia Britannica in one year or what if – what do you think your life would be like if you’re trying to follow every bit of health advice that you see on the news or you read on blogs or in magazines and newspapers.

Well, our guest today has done just those things. His name is AJ Jacobs and he is a writer. And he is also the editor at large at Esquire Magazine. And he’s a self-proclaimed human guinea pig. Today we’re going to talk about some of these crazy experiments that AJ has done with his life that he’s written about.

And we’re going to talk about what he’s learned from these experiments, how they’ve helped him become a better husband, a better father, overall better man, some of the missteps and some of the more funny things that have happened from those experiments. And we’re going to talk about how you can get started with your own personal life experiments and why you should do that.

So, it’s a great episode, great information and it’s going to be just a fun conversation. So stay tuned.

AJ Jacobs, welcome to the show.

AJ Jacobs: Thank you for having me Brett, great to be here.

Brett McKay: So, you’ve sort of made a career for yourself being a human guinea pig. You do these sorts of audacious self experiments, life experiments then you write essays for Esquire or you write a book about it. How did you get started with self experimentation?

AJ Jacobs: Yes, I’m happy to tell. First, I want to kiss your ass for just one second because I love the Art website and I was just looking at it today. I love the chest hair to pay, I mean that is gold right there. And then you had you printed recently an essay from 1902 Cosmopolitan about sissies and a crazy and bizarre and I agreed with some of it and I found some of it incredibly offensive but it was wonderful to read.

Brett McKay: Well, I appreciate it. And I got to return to asking because I’ve been a big fan of your work in Esquire and just your books. I think it’s – how long have you been, I think I’ve been reading your stuff since like high school I don’t want to make you feel older or anything. But I think I might have been doing that so.

AJ Jacobs: I love it. Well, that is fine, that makes me feel not old but wise, how is that?

Brett McKay: Yes, there you go.

AJ Jacobs: Trying to spin it. Yes, so I have been doing these experiments on myself for years. Mostly they’re self improvement. I need a lot of improvement. And I think one of my inspirations was this writer named George Clinton, who is a journalist like in the 70s, 60s, 70s, 80s and he would always do – he would dive in and immerse himself in his stories so he joined a baseball team and a football team, professional and played along with them. He got hit in the face by a professional boxer.

I don’t like getting hit on the face. But I like the idea of immersing yourself. So I decided I’m going to try to do this with every topic I do. So if I want to learn about the Bible, I’m going to try, I decided to spend a year living by all the rules of the Bible. If I want to learn about health, I’m going to try to follow all the medical advice in the world. So that’s sort of the genesis of this.

Brett McKay: All right. How do you decide like which experiments you could do? So you talked about, you’ve done the living a year biblically where you followed all the rules, you grew a beard, you wore like a white linen I guess it’s – I don’t know what you would call that, it’s almost a skirt. And what is the way you describe it?

AJ Jacobs: A robe.

Brett McKay: A robe, there you go, that’s a more manly right way to describe it. And you’re doing…

AJ Jacobs: Although I think I have heard the manly version of the skirt is a skort, is that right?

Brett McKay: Skort, I’ve seen those.

AJ Jacobs: Yes something like that.

Brett McKay: It’s like a utility skort.

AJ Jacobs: Something like that.

Brett McKay: Something like that. And so, how do you decide, I mean, you just like you see something or you read about something you’re like that’s really interesting I’m going to go for that or are these things you’ve always wanted to do or are they things that sort of come up in conversation, you think, hey that would actually be a great experiment to try out?

AJ Jacobs: Most of it, it’s got to be something I’m passionate about and I really want to learn about like with the bible I really wanted to learn about, I knew nothing about religion for my whole life. And I say in the book, I’m Jewish, but I’m Jewish in the same way the olive garden is Italian so not very. But and same with health, I was in terrible shape. So I thought this is the way to learn. And recently I went to a lecture on 3D printing, I don’t know if you’ve heard of 3D printing.

Brett McKay: Oh yes.

AJ Jacobs: And I was fascinated and I was like how can I dive into that. And my idea was, I’ll 3D print everything in my life, my clothes, my furniture, my toothbrush and it turned out I talked to some experts that would cost like $0.5 million. So I have to scale back a little bit and I did it the first full 3D printed dinner so four courses of 3D printed food and all of the forks and knives and my tie was 3D printed so it’s basically whatever is most interesting, I want to explore and this is how I do it.

Brett McKay: Wow. So, yes, that 3D printing experiment sounds like you like turned into George Jetson, print the food up, it’s pretty nice.

AJ Jacobs: I felt it was very George Jetson, little Star Trek thrown in there with a replicator. Yes, it was fascinating. I mean, it is a wild thing, the 3D printing. I tried to do it myself in my own attempt so it was very primitive like my fork looks like something a chimpanzee to get termites out of a hill. But the professionals, these engineers who do it it’s remarkable.

Brett McKay: Okay. So, it seems like just from like, just surfing the net and watching the news, it seems like self experimentation. It’s just like – it’s like all the rage now. Everyone is like tracking every bodily movement function their mood, how productive they are and their tweaking things to see if they can improve themselves. I guess it’s the whole quantified self movement.

AJ Jacobs: Right. And I’m a big fan of the quantified self movement, yes.

Brett McKay: Why do you think it’s suddenly become a thing, I mean, why are people measuring and tracking themselves and why are they trying these experiments on their lives?

AJ Jacobs: Yes, it is interesting that it has become a thing. I mean I saw a few months ago the onion did a fake article about an act that tracked whenever you pooped. And it would tweet out to all your friends whenever you had bowel movement and the details. So, I think that it’s easily mark-able. But there is a movement toward it, and I think one of the things that appeals to me is that the science as the more you keep track of things in your life, the more you quantify them, the more healthily you will behave.

So, just a simple one like handling a pedometer that will make you walk more because you’ll have a goal like my goal is 10,000 steps a day, and I really want to get to it. It gives me a little – it gives me way too much pleasure to get to 10,000. I need to find something more important in my life to be focused on. But I love having the goal. And I also, I’m also – I’m very motivated by competition. I think a lot of men are.

So, I’m on a website, I have a fit-bit which links to my computer and I have friends. So I can see how many steps they walked everyday. And they can mock me if I didn’t get to my goal and I mock them, so it’s a lot about humiliating your friends so I find that very uplifting.

Brett McKay: Yes, I got the fit-bit too. I’m really bad about, I’ll let it like lose all of its charge and then I won’t do it for a month. And then I’ll find it again, hey, this is great. I want to do it, and then I get back on track. So yes, I’ve read those studies too that like when you track things like – another example is money when you track every cent you spend you tend to spend less money and you’re more wise with your money.

Besides that benefit are there through your experience doing the sole quantified self thing and self experimentation, is there a downside or maybe even culturally or societally when you have all these people like measuring themselves and sort of being introspective like this and tweaking their lifestyle. Is there a downside to that or is it all positive?

AJ Jacobs: Well, I think I have heard a lot of people who haven’t found a downside that if you are tracking your way for instance everyday and you lose half a pound a day. I mean, if you gain half a pound on Tuesday, like it puts you in a terrible moods on Wednesday. And your whole self-esteem is tied to these tiny little changes. That’s not the way I work, so luckily it hasn’t affected me but there is that danger.

I mean, I think for me the positives outweigh the negatives, like for instance there is one other motivation I have with this self-cracking thing is their websites called like Charity Miles is one of them. And they will, you link up your fit-bit and if you get to a certain number of steps they will donate money to a charity, they have like sponsors who will do that.

So, I mean, I love that because if I’m tracking my steps and I won’t get to enough step, I feel like a terrible person, I feel like because I give money to Haiti through this thing, fresh water to Haiti. So, if I’m not walking then I feel like god I’m terrible I’m a bastard. I am like, I’m actually hurting people in Haiti, so I find that very motivating.

Brett McKay: Very good. So, let’s talk more about some of your specific memoirs and life experiments you’ve done. We’ve talked – mentioned several times about your year ability, and this is where you live by Jot or tittle, is that right, tittle?

AJ Jacobs: Yes, sure.

Brett McKay: Jot and tittle in the Bible.

AJ Jacobs: Which I think, I may be wrong because listeners might want to Jot and tittle I believe is the cross on the T right and the Jot is the eye, is that right or am I making that up.

Brett McKay: I think you’re right.

AJ Jacobs: All right. I’ll just throw that out.

Brett McKay: And what are the, I mean, it’s just hilarious, I mean, just sort of the things that happen, it is hard to live all these things in a modern world. But there is a lot of point insights that you got from the book. And the one that really hit home for me and it actually helped me write a blog post on The Art of Manliness was these ideas, as you live these – as you live these rituals, your idea and attitude towards religion or towards sacredness change.

AJ Jacobs: Yes.

Brett McKay: Can you talk a little bit about that experience you had?

AJ Jacobs: That’s one of the huge themes I think that runs through all of my experiments, all of my life, how much behavior affects your thoughts. How the outer affects the inner there is a great quote I wish I had made it up, but it was by the founder of Habitat For Humanity he says that it’s easier to act your way and to a new way of thinking than it is to think your way into new way of acting.

So, this came about like in the Bible I would act as if I were a good person, even though I might not be like a good person. I had a friend in a hospital, I hate hospitals, I didn’t want to go. But I was like, a good person would go. So, I would go and I would sort of trick my mind, I’d say I’m in the hospital, I must be compassionate. And then you become a little more compassionate.

And I think that works in every part of life – it works in writing. If I’m feeling like I don’t want to write, I just start moving my fingers and typing whatever crazy talk comes out of my fingers, it can be about like coffee I’m drinking. But you get into a rhythm and you sort of trick your mind and it’s like oh okay, now I’m writing now, I feel more confident and then you start writing a little bit more coherently.

So, for me this is a huge thing. And it’s run through several of my experiments something as simple as the way you hold your body that has a huge affect. I did this experiment on George Washington he had a 110 rules of life. And you might know, as – and so he wrote them down as a young man.

My favorite by the way is number two, and it was the second rule, this number two was do not adjust your private parts in public, like no pocket pool. Well, it seems like it’s a good rule but for number two it seems a little maybe over emphasized. Anyway, one of the things that he was famous was his posture, he had amazing posture.

So I thought I would try that the shoulders back, chest out. And it actually affected the way I felt, I felt more confident, more energetic, I’m doing it now. And I’ll tell you, he was way ahead of his time, because there were Harvard studies now, a lot of them. So That the way you hold your body affects your mood, even your testosterone level and if you want to be manly about it.

So, and there is a great Ted-talk on this by the way that’s gotten like millions of views, I really recommend it but it’s all about the power positioning, just Google Ted-talks Harvard posture and it will pop-up.

Brett McKay: Yes. I think that’s such a powerful principle for, if people want to make any like – anybody wants to make any improvements in their life, it’s just like I tell people like just do it, just like start doing it, because I think a lot of you will have these ideas, okay, well first I have to get motivated. I’ll read some inspirational book and then once I feel motivated then I’ll start doing these things. But like it doesn’t work that way, I mean.

AJ Jacobs: No, I agree with you 100%. I mean, you can get, to me it’s like that can be a vicious cycle or a virtuous cycle. So the vicious cycle is, you sit on your butt and you get depressed because you’re not exercising and then you get more depressed because when you don’t exercise it affects your mood.

So if you just take that first step and just like force yourself to do something then it becomes a virtuous cycle and you feel better and you’re like more motivated to do something more and then you feel better and it just becomes positive feedback loop.

Brett McKay: Excellent. I’m curious, do you still do any of the habits you picked up in A Year of Living Biblically or did you just discard all of those after you’re done?

AJ Jacobs: Well, I did discard a lot. I mean, there was like, I shaved my beard.

Brett McKay: Yes.

AJ Jacobs: So, I had a crazy ZZ top beard. And I did, the Bible says you can’t wear clothes made of mixed fibers so I don’t do that anymore, I went back. I mean, one that really had an affect on me was this idea of gratitude because the Bible says you should give thanks. And I was giving – taking that literally. So I was giving thanks all the time. I would press the elevator button and I give thanks to the elevator pavement. I get in the elevator and I’d be thankful it didn’t plummet to the basement and break my collarbone. And it was crazy, it was a crazy way to live but it was also wonderful because you realize when you do this there are hundreds of things that go right everyday that we totally take for granted. And we focus on the three or four things that go wrong.

So, if you can even have a partial mind, a partial shift in your perspective then you can really start to see how miracle it is, how much goes right. And I definitely tried to keep that.

Brett McKay: Very good. Let’s talk about your wife, because your wife often plays a big role in these life experiments, I mean, it’s hard not for her too. And some of them involve her directly, some of them don’t. The one that involved her directly and I think she appreciated it was the one in your book, my life as an experiment where you tried to be the perfect husband.

AJ Jacobs: Yes.

Brett McKay: Basically just doing whatever she asked.

AJ Jacobs: Yes, I don’t know, go ahead sorry.

Brett McKay: I was just going to say, I mean, it was funny. But what – did you get it like, did your perspective about marriage and relationships change because of that experiment?

AJ Jacobs: Yes, I mean, it was, the experiment was called whipped. And the idea was, it was actually suggested by readers because they are like you’ve been such a pain in the ass to your wife, why don’t you do a month where you just do everything she says. And so, I was her total doormat, whatever she said I did. And it was horrible, it was a horrible month, I can be quite honest. She was drunk with power, she was like, Kate Hudson movies or Ring Vow it was terrible.

But then there were takeaways, there were definitely lessons. I mean one of them I think, one of them is related to what we were just talking about. I would force myself to buying a present like a little gift everyday because I knew she would like that and well that’s what she wanted.

And then after that it could be like a little I don’t know a box or paper-bag, one flower. But just the act of doing that it made me like oh, I’m giving a gift to my wife, I must love her. And then you sort of love her more and you convince yourself and it made our relationship better. And of course she loved it, so it was again this virtuous circle where you’ll be nice to her, she is nice to you. And it just improves your life.

I will say it did have – there is one part of that experiment that has a continued negative effect on my life. I mean, our marriage is probably better but my life is worse because we made a list of every household chore that we did and at her demand. And I thought, honestly I thought I was doing like 40% of the housework and she was doing 60%. The real split was more like 15% – 85%. And it was, once we both saw that on the paper, like I can never get back to that pool of 15, because she is like you got to do this you got to do that. So, I think we are one of our many, many delusions in life, at least mine is, is that we think we do more than we actually do.

Brett McKay: Yes, I’ve noticed that as well. And I think we always over-estimate what you do and you always underestimate like what your partner does.

AJ Jacobs: Right.

Brett McKay: And that always causes friction, I think it happens in every marriage because you know what you’re doing right. Like you know like you’re keeping track of what you’re doing but you’re not keeping track of what your wife is doing.

AJ Jacobs: Exactly. I mean there are things like we have the liquids open. I just figured it refilled itself, I didn’t know the bottles like – I thought it was like a self cleaning oven, and just refilled in. And then I was like, oh my god, this is terrible I have to do it myself.

Brett McKay: So, let’s talk about some of these moments where you are sort of like a pain in the butt for our wife with your experiments. I mean, some of them are just like it was just like you were living Biblically there were lots of moments like that. But any advices, like I think I’ve encountered this too where I try these sort of like self-experiments.

And it sort of – it sort of gets in the way a little of my wife’s plans and she gets sort of frustrated, she is like, do you have to do this like what is going on? Any advice for men out there like I want to try experiments, I want to try to improve myself but how do I not have that tension or create tension in my marriage or relationship?

AJ Jacobs: Yes, that is, it’s a challenge. I mean, overall I think she is, she may not have been but I think she is happy that I’ve done these experiments because I do think they’ve improved me in the end. I may have been a huge pain in the ass when I was doing the Biblical book, she wouldn’t kiss me because of my beard. But I do think that she is happy, I’m more grateful now and I do think that I cove it and gossip and lie less. I still do it, a huge amount. But I like, I’ve cut down 30%.

So, maybe just tell your partner it’s for the greater good. It will payoff in the end. And also maybe somehow suddenly reminder that it’s interesting, it makes life interesting. I once read a short story, I can’t remember who wrote it, a woman who married this guy, a method actor who, he would choose like, and she loved it because every month she would get a different, one day she would get Stanley Kowalski and next day she will get someone else. So, maybe just subtly reminder, it keeps life interesting.

Brett McKay: Frame it that way, its good stuff. So, you’re also a dad and I think it’s like you have all boys, right. You wrote an article about like a picture of you wrestling your three boys, I think.

AJ Jacobs: Yes, exactly. I hope they don’t hate me for that one.

Brett McKay: Yes. But I mean, have you – with your experiments have they helped you become a better father in anyway?

AJ Jacobs: I think so, and I’m trying to think how. Well, I will tell you one example was during the year of living Biblically, the Bible is very in part of it, it’s very explicit and that you have to do corporal punishment. You could hit your kids. And not even just with your hand, with a stick. Do not spare the rot, spoil the child.

Brett McKay: Yes.

AJ Jacobs: So, I felt I had to do this and it’s not my parenting style so I bought a nerf stick, a nerf bat, so I would hit my kid with that when he was like two years old at the time. He thought it was hilarious so he would go and run and get a whiffle bat and start whaling on me. And I was like, this is not the message I want to send.

But I do think maybe it’s that as a model I think it’s important to teach kids that a certain amount of boldness is important in life and that you have to take risks and sometimes you were going to look like an idiot and you’re going to fail a lot which I do. I fail a tremendous amount. And that you got to be okay with that, that’s part of life. And so I think maybe that’s where the experiments have made me a better father.

Brett McKay: Very good. Your most recent memoir is Drop Dead Healthy and it’s your – you’re trying to be the – like following every bit of medical advice that makes you the healthiest person in the world. In fact, right now you’re walking on a walking-standing desk treadmill desk?

AJ Jacobs: Yes, I do, I love it, and I still do that. And I am going to break my 10,000 today, I think.

Brett McKay: Congratulations.

AJ Jacobs: Thanks.

Brett McKay: Any like short tips from that experience that guys can do today that will radically improve their health and well being?

AJ Jacobs: Well, there are some things that definitely changed my life and one of the – is just moving as much as possible. And the exercise doesn’t have to be at the gym, you can just do, you can do it in walk, you can do whatever you love, like gardening, I don’t like gardening, I find it incredibly dull. But some men like it and that’s exercise.

So, don’t be – don’t think of exercise as just a compartmentalized hour at the gym, try to think of your whole life as an exercise. And then just the thing about health after these two years, it really – it’s really quite simple how to – we all know what behaviors are healthy. The challenges, how do we motivate ourselves to do those behaviors because it’s really the common sense eating, eating whole foods, not processed foods, getting sleep, moving as much as possible, not stress thing and not smoking, don’t pick yourself in the forehead with an axe.

These are – it’s pretty clear. People try to make it complicated because that’s an easy way to make money if you say I’ve got the one secret that’s going to give you the 8-pack. That’s not true but it’s a way to make money because they didn’t like oh I have a secret.

Brett McKay: Yes. So just do simple things, move, relax and eat whole food.

AJ Jacobs: Right. I mean, for me the secrets are and actually I just started writing a column about this for a website called Upwave.com. And for me the secret is how do you motivate yourself, like what are tricks and strategies to make yourself do these healthy behaviors. That’s to me the key and that’s where I feel I’ve made progress and studied – found.

And they can be simple, they can be weird, there is the leaving your workout clothes by the door so that you remind it. It could be, there are studies that show that when you are thinking about your older self that you are backed in healthy way, because you’re like – you can’t respect yourself, respect others, you should respect your older self. Think of the older self as another person treat that older self like you would treat a friend.

So that for me I actually – I took that very literally and I took a photo of myself and I digitally aged it so that I look like I’m like 82. And I put it over my desk so that’s like think about that guy trying to treat him with a little respect. Maybe workout or eat healthy, don’t have that for Oreo because you want him to be around. You want him to be able to see his kids get married and have kids and maybe their kids have kids. So to me that’s one of there are many motivating tricks like that that I write about.

Brett McKay: Very good. So, you just mentioned Upwave.com, I mean, you are the editor at large at Esquire, you’ve written these books. But now you’re doing some stuff at Upwave. Can you tell us about what you’ll be doing there, is it more of the same, is it going to be more health oriented, is it going to be just sort of grab bag of different self-improvement things?

AJ Jacobs: Yes, it’s a very cool website and platform, not just website. It’s going to be on TV as well. And it’s all about health and fitness and my current column, is called jump-start where they take and it’s – that’s all about motivational techniques. So the ones I’ve just mentioned for instance or another one was there was – I tested out some apps, some health apps to see if that work.

There is one study that said if you are – if you have background noise, just a little bit of background noise like at a coffee shop, it makes you more creative as opposed to total silence. So you can actually download coffee shop noises in the internet.

Brett McKay: Coffitivity or?

AJ Jacobs: Coffitivity, exactly.

Brett McKay: Yes.

AJ Jacobs: You know about it, do you use it?

Brett McKay: I use it. I have been using it yes.

AJ Jacobs: I love it. Yes, I’ll write about that and hopefully I’ll be doing a web series later in the year. So yes, that’s the kind of thing. But it’s a very good website because it covers for the hardcore, the tough minded people but also just the people who want to get a little bit healthy and be around till for another few decades.

Brett McKay: Very good. Any future plans for big life experiments like the year of living Biblically or you’ve got anything up your sleeve like that?

AJ Jacobs: I am working on a new book, I’m kind of this off this experiment say it’s about ancestry and my ancestors that have history of humans and for the finale of the book I’m going to try to hold the biggest family reunion history. So, I’m hoping so, I’m excited and yes, we’ve got this guy Morgan Spurlock who directed Super Size Me, who I’m a huge fan of. He wants to produce the documentary about it. So that will be my first documentary. And I’m quite psyched and I’m trying to find relatives and my idea is that everyone is related. We just have to figure it out. So please try to figure out how you’re related to me.

Brett McKay: Sure. I imagine you checked out 23 and me?

AJ Jacobs: Yes, yes, they’ve been hugely helpful. And I have thousands of relatives through them, thank god.

Brett McKay: Yes, I found, I did that. And it’s sort of bizarre so it’s like Gattaca. So for those of you don’t know, 23 in me is, like you spit into this thing and you send it to this company and you sequence your genome. And part of the deal is like they’ll tell you if you related anybody else who has submitted their DNA as well. And I found like a second cousin so like we, share like great-great grandfather.

AJ Jacobs: Interesting.

Brett McKay: So.

AJ Jacobs: And did you get in touch with him or her?

Brett McKay: I got in touch with her and I have – it hasn’t gone anywhere though. I’m trying to get information from her, like hey, is there anyone else I don’t know about. So it’s pretty cool, I’m actually going to be doing a post about that pretty soon.

AJ Jacobs: Yes. Well, I’m going to check and see if we’re related.

Brett McKay: Yes.

AJ Jacobs: I mean, the interesting thing is I made my wife do it and then we compared. And we are cousins. I married my cousin.

Brett McKay: That’s crazy.

AJ Jacobs: Yes, I’m an inter-breeder, pretty freaked about that.

Brett McKay: All right. So, AJ, last question. Any final advice for men who want to get started with self-experimentation?

AJ Jacobs: I guess my only piece of advice is it doesn’t have to be big you don’t have to spend the year trying to live by the Bible and write a book about it, kind of just little things, just trying out new different toothpaste every couple of weeks or going a different way to work. And there are studies that show that that is actually good for the brain, trying to create new pathways in the brain and getting away from what they call neural ruts which are letting, the same ruts when you’re cross-country skiing and go on the same route.

So, anyway you can mix up life. I think it makes it a little more interesting, a little more fun and it’s good for your mental health. So little things don’t be – don’t think you have to get a book contract.

Brett McKay: Great. Well, AJ Jacobs, thank you so much for your time. It’s been a pleasure.

AJ Jacobs: My pleasure. I loved it.

Brett McKay: Our guest today was AJ Jacobs. AJ is the editor at large at Esquire Magazine. He has written several books on that you can find on Amazon.com, just search AJ Jacobs. I highly recommend you go check them out, just very entertaining reads but you also learn something from them. And he’s also now a contributing writer at Upwave.com. It’s a lifestyle and wellness site that also was going to have a TV channel as well. And AJ is writing about just researches, discovering how to become more motivated to improve your life. So great content there and go check it out.

Well, that wraps up another edition of The Art of Manliness Podcast. For more manly tips and advice, make sure to check out The Art of Manliness website at artofmanliness.com. And again if you are enjoying this podcast, you’re getting something out of it, I would really appreciate if you go to iTunes or whatever service you’re using to download and listen to the podcast and give us a rating that would help us reach more viewers and allow us to do more things in the podcast. So, I would appreciate that very much. Until next time, this is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly.