Comments on: Manly Honor Part V: Honor in the American South

By: JB

JB — Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:05:37 +0000

I see one very large glaring issue with the information as presented regarding violent crime. This article specifies white honor in the South since little was known of the honor code of Southern blacks during the time period. However the crime data presented to paint the South as somehow more violent is not broken down by race which is frequently painted as the crux of the argument. The South has a larger black population than any other portion of the US and violent crime among blacks is significantly higher (not just in the South but nationwide). I would suspect that if you removed violent crimes perpetrated by blacks from the figures your argument would not hold water.

By: Alexander

Alexander — Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:57:11 +0000

Five down two to go.

By: Ghost of 503

Ghost of 503 — Mon, 17 Dec 2012 09:06:50 +0000

Well I think the Elephant In The Room you mentioned in your original post could prove the groundwork for your next article, the way racial/ethnic minorities have shaped honor in these regional places. For example, black honor as an Exoduster living in the West versus a Freeman. living in the South.

By: Kendrick

Kendrick — Thu, 13 Dec 2012 14:39:03 +0000

As one who’s family has lived here in the same area of Alabama since the early 19th century, my family were farmers and herdsmen in an area that has become very highly populated within the past 50 or 60 years. So when more people began to move in, it pushed many families such as mine to more isolated areas where the code of honor still existed in many ways because there was only county law (that maybe patrolled once every two weeks) in those areas, so most people had to keep to what they had been taught on courage, strength and violence. I’ve begun to realize as I’m 25 years old now, and seeing my past family members and myself who were and still are very aggressive people, that there has been this total cultural “bumping of heads” between northern influence and southern influence here. It’s very much a psychological one at that, where I have things that I was taught that don’t fit the politically correct society that we live in today. Needless to say, as a man who comes from a long line of farmers, herdsmen, bootleggers and self-sufficient men, I’ve highly enjoyed reading this because it helps me to understand why I am the way I am and how this has been passed down through the generations. The only thing is that most of the families that still live like this will probably never even see this article. Very good though.

By: Nate

Nate — Thu, 13 Dec 2012 04:37:22 +0000

@Joel
Isn’t that how honour ended up in decline in the first place? People shrugging off their “traditional” culture in place of more “useful” culture?

(Or, for that matter, how honour probably originated- it was useful)

In truth, I’m concerned about much I will have to adapt in the next few years…

By: Michael

Michael — Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:34:29 +0000

@Daisy
I always felt particularly drawn to the line in the movie “Ride with the Devil” where Mr. Evans is speaking to about the war and he said “…they fancied that everyone should think and talk the same free-thinkin’ way they do with no regard to station, custom, propriety. And that is why they will win. Because they believe everyone should live and think just like them. And we shall lose because we don’t care one way or another how they live. We just worry about ourselves. ”
I believe that to be as true now as it was then. It would also explains (US) current foreign policy nicely if you add a dash (or more) of self-interest.

By: Paolo

Paolo — Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:04:09 +0000

@Joel – No matter what, real men don’t forget about honor. Adapt and survive but keep your honor intact. Just my two cents worth.

By: Joel

Joel — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 21:52:17 +0000

@Nate – You say that there appears to be a lack of honour in the Canadian middle class. What would you do then? Stand up for your “rights”, then get fired/demoted/arrested? That seems to be happening a lot lately.

Rather than fighting and lamenting for what has been taken away, you’re better off adapting and evaluating what you have left.
That is why some people are willing to study in fields that they find boring. Because in the end, they’ll have a higher chance of finding an open position that pays a decent salary with benefits. These people aren’t so much sheep as they are rats.

Forget about honour. Adapt and survive.

By: Daisy

Daisy — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 21:43:05 +0000

I think a largely underestimated and overlooked reason for the Civil War was also because of the large sense of distrust of federal government that pervaded the south (and still does to this day). Northerners telling the south that they would have to give up what was regionally perceived as an important part of their economy was not welcomed at all, and of course, their honor got the better of them. I think this issue has never been completely resolved, due to the mentality of “take care of your own” that is predominant south of the Mason Dixon. A lot of that can be credited to the clans of Scotland and Northern Ireland that migrated other. After years of invasion, subjugation and discrimination at the hands of the English, the Gaelic peoples learned to band together and they brought that with them to America.

By: Nate

Nate — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 18:56:19 +0000

Brilliant article. Strangely, I resonate a lot more strongly with “southern” honour than with “northern” honour as a lower class Canadian. My mom has an Irish bent, I think that was a factor too, as well as reading a lot of old greek literature as a young teenager.

I’m in University, “on my way up” so to speak and I’m finding the transition uncomfortable… the “northern” honour you describe seems the norm in the Canadian middle class at least and I’ve spent a lot of time over the last few years despising people for their weak character and, well, lack of honour… no personal loyalty, no group strength, blind adherence to rules, acceptance of awful life circumstances without complaint, not standing up for themselves, associating money with character, buying into a tiered society based on wealth and position…

I seem to automatically liken them to sheep. Richard Morgan used the term “cudlips” to describe “domesticated humans” in a sci fi novel which I found entertaining.

Still makes me mad I guess… none of them value anything I seem to value mind you, so if I act in any appropriate way I can be heavily criticized for it. I don’t fit in at all.

By contrast, my girlfriend is very “northern” minded in a sense, according to these articles. We had a funny argument recently about whether to enroll our future kids in martial arts or not. She said that our kids aren’t going to get in any fights, and aren’t going to have to be able to beat up their friends. I felt the opposite: the fighting, and being able to best his friends, would be important for the kid.

About martial arts though: it’s a matter of training character while building physical health, the fighting part was mostly a funny argument.

I think that this has to be a strong reason for why wealth-class distinctions exist- the honour and values of the groups differ so much that the poor actually despises the upper class way of thinking and life, which segregates them from institutions like universities- they hate to live “like them,” and weren’t raised with the values that will help them succeed there (eg, suffering through weeks of boring, terrible classes without complaint is a matter of academic necessity, but maybe a “northern gentleman” virtue) and the middle to upper class looks down on lower class behaviors, helping to keep poor people out even further through social pressure…

Haven’t slept much, final exams coming up, hope that was somewhat coherent. This little box makes editing difficult!