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	<title>Comments on: Manvotional: Pioneers! O Pioneers! by Walt Whitman</title>
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	<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/</link>
	<description>Men&#039;s Interests and Lifestyle</description>
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		<title>By: DFerris85</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-73110</link>
		<dc:creator>DFerris85</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 06:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-73110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Love all of the different thoughts on the American expansion to the west. I understand the urge to blanket the early settlers with the sole blame for the demise of the indigenous population. And in a certain thought, we are wholly to blame. Yet when delving a little deaper, the migration of the natives from Siberia toward America occurred over a few thousand years. Of course, this does not mean that one group of people left Siberia one day and arrived a few thousand years later. Tribes migrated hundreds of miles away, died, and their spawn pushed a little further. This continuous cascade of peoples through successive generations resulted in the pre-colonial America we read about in the history books.
   These people, when arrived, did not (for the most part) live symbiotically. Warring tribes have been a constant on this continent- long before we ever arrived. In fact, the cultural and social evolution of most of the tribes were sculpted by the prospects, actualization, and fruits of war. Tribes were wiped out- although we see them as evolving. When an original tribal group of a few hundred commits to war, is reduced to a mere 50, and these 50 people, in order to survive, develop different customs- is there evolution? or devolution?
   I guess what I&#039;m saying is- the fact that we see ourselves today so different from the Indian peoples is what gives birth to the guilt we hold. The fact that we have such an enveloping term &quot;Native Americans&quot; and &quot;Indians&quot; is proof of this. The various tribes saw themselves different from one another just as we do the natives. If our genocide had breadth, theirs had depth.
   Lastly, try and look at Whitman&#039;s theme of the expansion to the west as a metaphor for the old world starting anew. The European settlers coming here with a clean slate, and open possibilities- thus, they were recreating humanity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love all of the different thoughts on the American expansion to the west. I understand the urge to blanket the early settlers with the sole blame for the demise of the indigenous population. And in a certain thought, we are wholly to blame. Yet when delving a little deaper, the migration of the natives from Siberia toward America occurred over a few thousand years. Of course, this does not mean that one group of people left Siberia one day and arrived a few thousand years later. Tribes migrated hundreds of miles away, died, and their spawn pushed a little further. This continuous cascade of peoples through successive generations resulted in the pre-colonial America we read about in the history books.<br />
   These people, when arrived, did not (for the most part) live symbiotically. Warring tribes have been a constant on this continent- long before we ever arrived. In fact, the cultural and social evolution of most of the tribes were sculpted by the prospects, actualization, and fruits of war. Tribes were wiped out- although we see them as evolving. When an original tribal group of a few hundred commits to war, is reduced to a mere 50, and these 50 people, in order to survive, develop different customs- is there evolution? or devolution?<br />
   I guess what I&#8217;m saying is- the fact that we see ourselves today so different from the Indian peoples is what gives birth to the guilt we hold. The fact that we have such an enveloping term &#8220;Native Americans&#8221; and &#8220;Indians&#8221; is proof of this. The various tribes saw themselves different from one another just as we do the natives. If our genocide had breadth, theirs had depth.<br />
   Lastly, try and look at Whitman&#8217;s theme of the expansion to the west as a metaphor for the old world starting anew. The European settlers coming here with a clean slate, and open possibilities- thus, they were recreating humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Schmidt</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-72212</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Schmidt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 20:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-72212</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d say Jimbo knows US history better than Tony does.  To help Tony with some of his mistakes and stereotypes, see:

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2009/12/educating-tony-about-genocide.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say Jimbo knows US history better than Tony does.  To help Tony with some of his mistakes and stereotypes, see:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2009/12/educating-tony-about-genocide.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2009/12/educating-tony-about-genocide.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ed Gruszecki</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-69192</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Gruszecki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-69192</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How inspirational were those words, in those times; in Walt&#039;s times!
Now there are different times and the crucible of manliless has become distorted.
         So, I wrote:

                                                 MUSLIM
                             And The Foolishness Of The Fight


                                I&#039;ll eat no swine,
                                I&#039;ll drink no wine,
                                I&#039;m a Muslim

                                I&#039;ll fly your planes into your walls,
                                I&#039;ll show you that we too have balls.
                                I&#039;m a Muslim.

                                I am the young man with a cause,
                                Exploding without pause.
                                I&#039;m a Muslim.

                                I&#039;m as stupid as are you,
                                Waving flag red white and blue,
                                I&#039;m a Muslim.

                                Your boys kill people in Baghdad,
                                 I kill myself because I&#039;m sad.
                                 I&#039;m a Muslim.

                                 I am as stupid as you,
                                 And until our lives our through,
                                 I&#039;ll be Muslim.

                                 Shoot me now or I&#039;ll shoot you,
                                 It will make no sense till you
                                 See that I&#039;m Muslim.

                                 My fathers have tought me to be tough,
                                 Yours have made you tough enough.
                                 You are Muslim.

                                 We&#039;ll kill each other a little more,
                                 We&#039;ll  settle each and every score,
                                 Because we&#039;re Muslims.

                                 Allah will love me for my fight,
                                 Your God will love you for the might
                                 You shower down into our night
                                 Of Shock And Awe into the sight
                                 Of children who cower &#039;neath the plight
                                 Of being Muslim.

                                 We are no different, you and I,
                                 Both have guns, both easily die,
                                 Because we&#039;re Muslim.

                                 When the fuck will fathers learn
                                 There is no reason more to burn,
                                 Our people
                                  &#039;Cause they&#039;re Muslim?

                                  You are dying, so are we,
                                  It is time that both we see
                                  The Infidel is you and me,
                                  And we&#039;re both Muslims. 

                                                                                                 Ed Gruszecki
            

      Walt&#039;s &#039;Blades Of Grass&#039; are, these days, too often split by bullets hurling.  It is nice to be a fan of the old Poets.  It is nice to be an old poet (which I am).  But is terrible to understand how war continues on, and for so supercillious a reason as religious nonsense.  
     Anyway, those were the thoughts on my mind this morning.  I thought I&#039;d share them with you.  The aforementioned poem is only &#039;broadly&#039; copyrighted (under a body of work), but not in any exclusivity, so you can do whatever you want with it (should you choose).
     Good night, O Pioneer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How inspirational were those words, in those times; in Walt&#8217;s times!<br />
Now there are different times and the crucible of manliless has become distorted.<br />
         So, I wrote:</p>
<p>                                                 MUSLIM<br />
                             And The Foolishness Of The Fight</p>
<p>                                I&#8217;ll eat no swine,<br />
                                I&#8217;ll drink no wine,<br />
                                I&#8217;m a Muslim</p>
<p>                                I&#8217;ll fly your planes into your walls,<br />
                                I&#8217;ll show you that we too have balls.<br />
                                I&#8217;m a Muslim.</p>
<p>                                I am the young man with a cause,<br />
                                Exploding without pause.<br />
                                I&#8217;m a Muslim.</p>
<p>                                I&#8217;m as stupid as are you,<br />
                                Waving flag red white and blue,<br />
                                I&#8217;m a Muslim.</p>
<p>                                Your boys kill people in Baghdad,<br />
                                 I kill myself because I&#8217;m sad.<br />
                                 I&#8217;m a Muslim.</p>
<p>                                 I am as stupid as you,<br />
                                 And until our lives our through,<br />
                                 I&#8217;ll be Muslim.</p>
<p>                                 Shoot me now or I&#8217;ll shoot you,<br />
                                 It will make no sense till you<br />
                                 See that I&#8217;m Muslim.</p>
<p>                                 My fathers have tought me to be tough,<br />
                                 Yours have made you tough enough.<br />
                                 You are Muslim.</p>
<p>                                 We&#8217;ll kill each other a little more,<br />
                                 We&#8217;ll  settle each and every score,<br />
                                 Because we&#8217;re Muslims.</p>
<p>                                 Allah will love me for my fight,<br />
                                 Your God will love you for the might<br />
                                 You shower down into our night<br />
                                 Of Shock And Awe into the sight<br />
                                 Of children who cower &#8216;neath the plight<br />
                                 Of being Muslim.</p>
<p>                                 We are no different, you and I,<br />
                                 Both have guns, both easily die,<br />
                                 Because we&#8217;re Muslim.</p>
<p>                                 When the fuck will fathers learn<br />
                                 There is no reason more to burn,<br />
                                 Our people<br />
                                  &#8216;Cause they&#8217;re Muslim?</p>
<p>                                  You are dying, so are we,<br />
                                  It is time that both we see<br />
                                  The Infidel is you and me,<br />
                                  And we&#8217;re both Muslims. </p>
<p>                                                                                                 Ed Gruszecki</p>
<p>      Walt&#8217;s &#8216;Blades Of Grass&#8217; are, these days, too often split by bullets hurling.  It is nice to be a fan of the old Poets.  It is nice to be an old poet (which I am).  But is terrible to understand how war continues on, and for so supercillious a reason as religious nonsense.<br />
     Anyway, those were the thoughts on my mind this morning.  I thought I&#8217;d share them with you.  The aforementioned poem is only &#8216;broadly&#8217; copyrighted (under a body of work), but not in any exclusivity, so you can do whatever you want with it (should you choose).<br />
     Good night, O Pioneer.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-62758</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-62758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tony,

       About your statement, &quot;Jimbo, if that were true, then how come people still say they’re settling in Ohio or NYC? &quot;

No one is settling in Ohio.  We are just passing through and end up staying for longer then we expected.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony,</p>
<p>       About your statement, &#8220;Jimbo, if that were true, then how come people still say they’re settling in Ohio or NYC? &#8221;</p>
<p>No one is settling in Ohio.  We are just passing through and end up staying for longer then we expected.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-62740</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-62740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For all the pc hand wringing in the Native American argument, I would like to do some pc hand wringing of my own. One of the first posters said that they were hesitant to qualify Whitman as &quot;Manly.&quot; One could say it was because he was a poet and intellectual, but let&#039;s not beat around the bush here; its because he was gay. Now we can get into a big &quot;is it manly?&quot; discussion about whether homosexuals can be traditionally manly, but looking at Whitman&#039;s life and works is enough, for me anyway, to say he is definitely manly. 

He served as a combat nurse in the Civil War. Now before you get your dander up, consider the working conditions in that place and time period. We cannot imagine the horror, blood, stench, and death of a Civil War medical tent. It would take a man with nerves of steel to both treat the injured solders and keep their sanity the whole time. Now some would argue that a real man&#039;s place is on the battlefield. I say that one of the essential characters of a real man is to stand by his principles. A conscientious objector, Whitman served his country without violence. Sometimes it takes strength not to fight. 

Lastly, let&#039;s consider his patriotism. His service in the crucible of war only strengthened his love of country. We need poets to express and preserve the values and ideas that shape us as a culture, and Whitman was the poet our country needed at the time. His verses speak of independence, manly fellowship, and reverence for nature. That&#039;s manly in my book. Who cares if he was gay?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For all the pc hand wringing in the Native American argument, I would like to do some pc hand wringing of my own. One of the first posters said that they were hesitant to qualify Whitman as &#8220;Manly.&#8221; One could say it was because he was a poet and intellectual, but let&#8217;s not beat around the bush here; its because he was gay. Now we can get into a big &#8220;is it manly?&#8221; discussion about whether homosexuals can be traditionally manly, but looking at Whitman&#8217;s life and works is enough, for me anyway, to say he is definitely manly. </p>
<p>He served as a combat nurse in the Civil War. Now before you get your dander up, consider the working conditions in that place and time period. We cannot imagine the horror, blood, stench, and death of a Civil War medical tent. It would take a man with nerves of steel to both treat the injured solders and keep their sanity the whole time. Now some would argue that a real man&#8217;s place is on the battlefield. I say that one of the essential characters of a real man is to stand by his principles. A conscientious objector, Whitman served his country without violence. Sometimes it takes strength not to fight. </p>
<p>Lastly, let&#8217;s consider his patriotism. His service in the crucible of war only strengthened his love of country. We need poets to express and preserve the values and ideas that shape us as a culture, and Whitman was the poet our country needed at the time. His verses speak of independence, manly fellowship, and reverence for nature. That&#8217;s manly in my book. Who cares if he was gay?</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-62651</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 04:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-62651</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To Justin: I don&#039;t think he&#039;s unmanly because he was a poet. I&#039;m a fan of Edgar Allen Poe&#039;s poetry, and I think poetry has a place in a man&#039;s life. I feel Whitman is unmanly mostly due to this ignorant philosophies (Humans are all great people), and his claiming to understand the plight of slaves, dying firemen, and rescuing drowning people from a ship, when his life had little hardship in it. By taking credit for things he has not done (Through his transcendentalist beliefs), he is rendered unmanly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Justin: I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s unmanly because he was a poet. I&#8217;m a fan of Edgar Allen Poe&#8217;s poetry, and I think poetry has a place in a man&#8217;s life. I feel Whitman is unmanly mostly due to this ignorant philosophies (Humans are all great people), and his claiming to understand the plight of slaves, dying firemen, and rescuing drowning people from a ship, when his life had little hardship in it. By taking credit for things he has not done (Through his transcendentalist beliefs), he is rendered unmanly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jimbo</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-62639</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-62639</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very well if we&#039;re citing any old webites.  here it is from wikipedia:

United States of America
Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples constituted genocide. Cesarani states that &quot;in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust&quot;.[27] He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust,[28] who speaks of the &quot;genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States ...&quot;[29] Michno estimates 21,586 dead, wounded, and captured civilians and soldiers for the period of 1850–1890 alone.[30]

In God, Greed, and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries, Grenke quotes Chalk and Jonassohn with regards to the Cherokee Trail of Tears that &quot;an act like the Cherokee deportation would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today&quot;.[31] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the Trail of Tears. About 17,000 Cherokees — along with approximately 2,000 black slaves owned by Cherokees — were removed from their homes.[32] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[33]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well if we&#8217;re citing any old webites.  here it is from wikipedia:</p>
<p>United States of America<br />
Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples constituted genocide. Cesarani states that &#8220;in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust&#8221;.[27] He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust,[28] who speaks of the &#8220;genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States &#8230;&#8221;[29] Michno estimates 21,586 dead, wounded, and captured civilians and soldiers for the period of 1850–1890 alone.[30]</p>
<p>In God, Greed, and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries, Grenke quotes Chalk and Jonassohn with regards to the Cherokee Trail of Tears that &#8220;an act like the Cherokee deportation would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today&#8221;.[31] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the Trail of Tears. About 17,000 Cherokees — along with approximately 2,000 black slaves owned by Cherokees — were removed from their homes.[32] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[33]</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-62581</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-62581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Much of what you say is true, Jimbob, but some of what you say is in error. 

&quot;The Aboriginal notion of progress was not based upon the superiority and exploitation of nature, as is the European notion, but was based on the equality of people.&quot;

I&#039;m not sure what kind of equality you&#039;re referencing, but although tribes were largely matriarchal, women were seen as inferior. They also believed that others tribes were inferior. If you are talking about economic equality, than that is true. 

As far as not exploiting nature, that is a romantic myth. Native Americans exploited nature to the extent that their technology allowed. They often hunted and farmed in ways that were wasteful.
http://www.perc.org/articles/article651.php

&quot;This is a euphemism for genocide. By subdued you may mean that Natives were systematically murdered through disease, war, and starvation for their land. It is well known that disease was used to facilitate Native population decline – in the form of contaminated blankets and other trade items.&quot;

You&#039;re really overreaching here. Genocide is a term easy to throw around to pump up your point, but it&#039;s really not appropriate here. You say the Indians were &quot;systematically murdered,&quot; but by far the thing that killed the natives the most was the diseases that they contracted when the Europeans arrived. These diseases were not spread will ill intent. If I have swine flu and I give it to someone else and they die, did I murder them? I hope not! The bit about the Indians being given blankets infected with smallpox is mostly myth. There is only a single documented case of this tactic even being discussed, there is no evidence that it was ever carried out, and it was discussed by a British general as a war tactic.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1088/did-whites-ever-give-native-americans-blankets-infected-with-smallpox
http://www.thefurtrapper.com/indian_smallpox.htm

There was never any systematic policy in place to wipe the Native Americans out. Disease is not a system-it just happened. War was not waged against the Indian to kill him, but simply to move him off his land (still unconscionable, but not genocide), and starvation (the killing of buffalo) was also not used to kill the Indians but to force them onto reservations. Again, there was never a system put in place to commit genocide against Indians. Most of the Indian policies were motivated by a desire for land, but also out of a misplaced belief that assimilating the Indians through reservation life and schools was the best thing for that culture. It&#039;s easy to look back now and see how wrong-headed these ideas were, but they were not attempts to murder the Indians.

Finally the premise of your whole argument is ultimately flawed. You seek to see virtue in the NA culture because they were equal, and more gentle to the environment, and so on. But this is true of every people before they had writing and more efficient agriculture. The African people, the Caucasian people, every pre-historical tribe. But lived like that not from choice, but from a lack of an alternative. They lacked written language which kept them from record keeping, which kept them from property ownership, which kept them from a formal economy and so on. There is no virtue where there is no choice.

Relativism is silly-some cultures are superior to other cultures. A superior culture came to this land and the results were incredibly unfortunate. But it also brought progress. We can sing the praises of a tribal culture all day long, but no one wants to go back and live like that. Like I said earlier, we wouldn&#039;t be having this argument online if the white man hadn&#039;t come and taken over. The Indians were a warring people, who went to battle against one another. If our roles had been reversed, they would have assuredly conquered us.

It&#039;s important to look beyond what you read from Howard Zinn or what your college professor told you to get a full understanding of history.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much of what you say is true, Jimbob, but some of what you say is in error. </p>
<p>&#8220;The Aboriginal notion of progress was not based upon the superiority and exploitation of nature, as is the European notion, but was based on the equality of people.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what kind of equality you&#8217;re referencing, but although tribes were largely matriarchal, women were seen as inferior. They also believed that others tribes were inferior. If you are talking about economic equality, than that is true. </p>
<p>As far as not exploiting nature, that is a romantic myth. Native Americans exploited nature to the extent that their technology allowed. They often hunted and farmed in ways that were wasteful.<br />
<a href="http://www.perc.org/articles/article651.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.perc.org/articles/article651.php</a></p>
<p>&#8220;This is a euphemism for genocide. By subdued you may mean that Natives were systematically murdered through disease, war, and starvation for their land. It is well known that disease was used to facilitate Native population decline – in the form of contaminated blankets and other trade items.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re really overreaching here. Genocide is a term easy to throw around to pump up your point, but it&#8217;s really not appropriate here. You say the Indians were &#8220;systematically murdered,&#8221; but by far the thing that killed the natives the most was the diseases that they contracted when the Europeans arrived. These diseases were not spread will ill intent. If I have swine flu and I give it to someone else and they die, did I murder them? I hope not! The bit about the Indians being given blankets infected with smallpox is mostly myth. There is only a single documented case of this tactic even being discussed, there is no evidence that it was ever carried out, and it was discussed by a British general as a war tactic.<br />
<a href="http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1088/did-whites-ever-give-native-americans-blankets-infected-with-smallpox" rel="nofollow">http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1088/did-whites-ever-give-native-americans-blankets-infected-with-smallpox</a><br />
<a href="http://www.thefurtrapper.com/indian_smallpox.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.thefurtrapper.com/indian_smallpox.htm</a></p>
<p>There was never any systematic policy in place to wipe the Native Americans out. Disease is not a system-it just happened. War was not waged against the Indian to kill him, but simply to move him off his land (still unconscionable, but not genocide), and starvation (the killing of buffalo) was also not used to kill the Indians but to force them onto reservations. Again, there was never a system put in place to commit genocide against Indians. Most of the Indian policies were motivated by a desire for land, but also out of a misplaced belief that assimilating the Indians through reservation life and schools was the best thing for that culture. It&#8217;s easy to look back now and see how wrong-headed these ideas were, but they were not attempts to murder the Indians.</p>
<p>Finally the premise of your whole argument is ultimately flawed. You seek to see virtue in the NA culture because they were equal, and more gentle to the environment, and so on. But this is true of every people before they had writing and more efficient agriculture. The African people, the Caucasian people, every pre-historical tribe. But lived like that not from choice, but from a lack of an alternative. They lacked written language which kept them from record keeping, which kept them from property ownership, which kept them from a formal economy and so on. There is no virtue where there is no choice.</p>
<p>Relativism is silly-some cultures are superior to other cultures. A superior culture came to this land and the results were incredibly unfortunate. But it also brought progress. We can sing the praises of a tribal culture all day long, but no one wants to go back and live like that. Like I said earlier, we wouldn&#8217;t be having this argument online if the white man hadn&#8217;t come and taken over. The Indians were a warring people, who went to battle against one another. If our roles had been reversed, they would have assuredly conquered us.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s important to look beyond what you read from Howard Zinn or what your college professor told you to get a full understanding of history.</p>
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		<title>By: Jimbo</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-62561</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-62561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James, 

        When Europeans first arrived in America, they were given welfare in the form of food and local knowledge about how to survive scurvy, winters, etc.  
       The vast majority of Native tribes were not hunter gatherers as you see it.  Native Americans settlements were primarily based on Agriculture, growing: squash, cotton, tobacco, corn and beans.  Row planting, and crop rotation were widely used. 
            In southern parts of the US complex canals systems hundreds of miles in length were built to provide irrigation to crops in the desert.  Settlements were based around wells.  
        Native Americans did in fact have towns, the largest consisting of between 8-40 thousand residents, Cahokia was the largest American urban area until 1800.
Native Americans were advanced in preventative medicine, mathematics, astronomy, and jewelry design.
     The Aboriginal notion of progress was not based upon the superiority and exploitation of nature, as is the European notion, but was based on the equality of  people.
      This does not sound very primitive to me.  
        The only thing I find primitive is your statement:         &quot;See them for what they were – a technologically inferior people who were subdued and assimilated as happens when any advanced culture encounters a lesser one&quot;
       This is a euphemism for genocide.  By subdued you may mean that Natives were systematically murdered through disease, war, and starvation for their land.  It is well known that disease was used to facilitate Native population decline - in the form of contaminated blankets and other trade items.  The buffalo were exterminated in an effort to starve Natives into signing treaties.  Finally those who would not sign treaties were invaded by the army.
       Assimilation was the final strategy to eliminate Native culture in America, using Christian boarding schools.  Fortunately this was unsuccessful, 2.7 million Natives live in America, but this is a far cry from the 8-112 million pre contact population.

There is no romanticization here, and the only revisionism are the myths which you insist on continuing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, </p>
<p>        When Europeans first arrived in America, they were given welfare in the form of food and local knowledge about how to survive scurvy, winters, etc.<br />
       The vast majority of Native tribes were not hunter gatherers as you see it.  Native Americans settlements were primarily based on Agriculture, growing: squash, cotton, tobacco, corn and beans.  Row planting, and crop rotation were widely used.<br />
            In southern parts of the US complex canals systems hundreds of miles in length were built to provide irrigation to crops in the desert.  Settlements were based around wells.<br />
        Native Americans did in fact have towns, the largest consisting of between 8-40 thousand residents, Cahokia was the largest American urban area until 1800.<br />
Native Americans were advanced in preventative medicine, mathematics, astronomy, and jewelry design.<br />
     The Aboriginal notion of progress was not based upon the superiority and exploitation of nature, as is the European notion, but was based on the equality of  people.<br />
      This does not sound very primitive to me.<br />
        The only thing I find primitive is your statement:         &#8220;See them for what they were – a technologically inferior people who were subdued and assimilated as happens when any advanced culture encounters a lesser one&#8221;<br />
       This is a euphemism for genocide.  By subdued you may mean that Natives were systematically murdered through disease, war, and starvation for their land.  It is well known that disease was used to facilitate Native population decline &#8211; in the form of contaminated blankets and other trade items.  The buffalo were exterminated in an effort to starve Natives into signing treaties.  Finally those who would not sign treaties were invaded by the army.<br />
       Assimilation was the final strategy to eliminate Native culture in America, using Christian boarding schools.  Fortunately this was unsuccessful, 2.7 million Natives live in America, but this is a far cry from the 8-112 million pre contact population.</p>
<p>There is no romanticization here, and the only revisionism are the myths which you insist on continuing.</p>
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		<title>By: K</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/11/21/manvotional-pioneers-o-pioneers-by-walt-whitman/comment-page-1/#comment-62524</link>
		<dc:creator>K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=7625#comment-62524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James, saying that Indigenous Americans weren&#039;t advanced by including &quot;no horses&quot; in that list should embarrass you.  We measure the development of cultures based on which animals were available for use?  As for &quot;no towns&quot;, &quot;no true agriculture&quot;, &quot;no livestock&quot;, &quot;no system of written language&quot;, &quot;no metal tools&quot;, and &quot;no cloth&quot;, a simple Google search confirms my hunches that you are wrong.  Seeing truth is strength, remember?

Although I&#039;m skeptical of Noble Savage claims, I&#039;m equally dubious of those who think the value of a people or culture can be measured by technology or trinkets, or those who conflate what they&#039;ve seen in Pocahontas with the entirety of Mesoamerican civilization.  As for revisionism and not glorifying the past, let us not forget that when Europeans arrived, Europeans were still pooping in streets.

Indigenous Americans were massacred by a more powerful foe, as has happened countless times in history.  To glorify that is not &quot;truth&quot;, it is barbarism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, saying that Indigenous Americans weren&#8217;t advanced by including &#8220;no horses&#8221; in that list should embarrass you.  We measure the development of cultures based on which animals were available for use?  As for &#8220;no towns&#8221;, &#8220;no true agriculture&#8221;, &#8220;no livestock&#8221;, &#8220;no system of written language&#8221;, &#8220;no metal tools&#8221;, and &#8220;no cloth&#8221;, a simple Google search confirms my hunches that you are wrong.  Seeing truth is strength, remember?</p>
<p>Although I&#8217;m skeptical of Noble Savage claims, I&#8217;m equally dubious of those who think the value of a people or culture can be measured by technology or trinkets, or those who conflate what they&#8217;ve seen in Pocahontas with the entirety of Mesoamerican civilization.  As for revisionism and not glorifying the past, let us not forget that when Europeans arrived, Europeans were still pooping in streets.</p>
<p>Indigenous Americans were massacred by a more powerful foe, as has happened countless times in history.  To glorify that is not &#8220;truth&#8221;, it is barbarism.</p>
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