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	<title>Comments on: The Hard Way</title>
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	<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/</link>
	<description>Men&#039;s Interests and Lifestyle</description>
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		<title>By: GORUCK Tough: An account of GORUCK Challenge Class 031</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-293978</link>
		<dc:creator>GORUCK Tough: An account of GORUCK Challenge Class 031</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-293978</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] http://artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/ [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/" rel="nofollow">http://artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-24611</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-24611</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m 21 my old man has taught me well, i use to be a chef and that was bloody hard work. I then lost my job, again that was hard. I then found a new job, but because its desk work its easy money for very little effort i feel i need a challenge, life isnt about what you attain its how you got there, if it was handed to you on a plate you don&#039;t appreciateit. If its sort after and truly earned then its worth it, on now for my next challenge, what it is I dont know yet............]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m 21 my old man has taught me well, i use to be a chef and that was bloody hard work. I then lost my job, again that was hard. I then found a new job, but because its desk work its easy money for very little effort i feel i need a challenge, life isnt about what you attain its how you got there, if it was handed to you on a plate you don&#8217;t appreciateit. If its sort after and truly earned then its worth it, on now for my next challenge, what it is I dont know yet&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-24248</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 02:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-24248</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Love the site and love every inch of this article, except perhaps this:

-----
And relationships? Well, working through marriages can be difficult, so â€œexpertsâ€ have stepped in to hand you a Kleenex and pat your back as they tell you, â€œYou deserve to be with someone who adores you for you, don&#039;t feel bad about ending things and moving on to someone new who will better meet your needs.â€
-----

Sometimes this is perfectly good advice. More and more I see people who just have no business being together. They have few or no shared interests, no real affection and it&#039;s plainly obvious that they don&#039;t enjoy each other&#039;s company and are only hanging on so that they don&#039;t have to be alone. I think telling these people that they should just suck it up and make the best of it because that&#039;s what real men do is leading them astray from true happiness.

Other than that, great article, and a sorely needed one!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love the site and love every inch of this article, except perhaps this:</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8211;<br />
And relationships? Well, working through marriages can be difficult, so â€œexpertsâ€ have stepped in to hand you a Kleenex and pat your back as they tell you, â€œYou deserve to be with someone who adores you for you, don&#8217;t feel bad about ending things and moving on to someone new who will better meet your needs.â€<br />
&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>Sometimes this is perfectly good advice. More and more I see people who just have no business being together. They have few or no shared interests, no real affection and it&#8217;s plainly obvious that they don&#8217;t enjoy each other&#8217;s company and are only hanging on so that they don&#8217;t have to be alone. I think telling these people that they should just suck it up and make the best of it because that&#8217;s what real men do is leading them astray from true happiness.</p>
<p>Other than that, great article, and a sorely needed one!</p>
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		<title>By: knit_tgz</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-24166</link>
		<dc:creator>knit_tgz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 15:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-24166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[About the shame and humiliation issue: I agree that different people need different approaches. I respond very badly to shame and humiliation because that&#039;s already how I work inside. I am a perfectionist. Example:

When I was learning to drive, my first instructor was of the opinion that all young people learning to drive needed to be humiliated in order to internalize that driving is a work of great responsability, that you could kill someone if you take it too lightly, and that no, you don&#039;t drive as well as you think you do. I&#039;m sure this worked great for the average 18-20 year old. But for me it was paralyzing. I am already too much aware that I do not drive well and that a mistake could be fatal. The result: I got so nervous that I failed 2 driving exams. After the second failed exam, I switched for a second instructor, a firm but encouraging one. You know, the type that gives you one or two select encouragements when you finally overcome some barrier you had. (keep saying that I am special and I deserve it and I&#039;ll dismiss you as a blubbering idiot. And I&#039;m a woman. I want words with meaning. One meant encouragement means more that 100 stupid feel-good things). He finally said to me on the day before my last exam: &quot;I have seen you drive better than many people who have passed exams. You are not a good driver, and you will not be without years of practice. And you know it. But you are good enough and responsible enough to get a license, more so than many others&quot;. I did pass the third exam, with no mistakes. 

This is the thing: pressure makes diamonds, but pressure breaks diamonds too. You have to know who you&#039;re dealing with.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About the shame and humiliation issue: I agree that different people need different approaches. I respond very badly to shame and humiliation because that&#8217;s already how I work inside. I am a perfectionist. Example:</p>
<p>When I was learning to drive, my first instructor was of the opinion that all young people learning to drive needed to be humiliated in order to internalize that driving is a work of great responsability, that you could kill someone if you take it too lightly, and that no, you don&#8217;t drive as well as you think you do. I&#8217;m sure this worked great for the average 18-20 year old. But for me it was paralyzing. I am already too much aware that I do not drive well and that a mistake could be fatal. The result: I got so nervous that I failed 2 driving exams. After the second failed exam, I switched for a second instructor, a firm but encouraging one. You know, the type that gives you one or two select encouragements when you finally overcome some barrier you had. (keep saying that I am special and I deserve it and I&#8217;ll dismiss you as a blubbering idiot. And I&#8217;m a woman. I want words with meaning. One meant encouragement means more that 100 stupid feel-good things). He finally said to me on the day before my last exam: &#8220;I have seen you drive better than many people who have passed exams. You are not a good driver, and you will not be without years of practice. And you know it. But you are good enough and responsible enough to get a license, more so than many others&#8221;. I did pass the third exam, with no mistakes. </p>
<p>This is the thing: pressure makes diamonds, but pressure breaks diamonds too. You have to know who you&#8217;re dealing with.</p>
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		<title>By: Logan</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-24158</link>
		<dc:creator>Logan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 03:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-24158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[just wanted to chime in and say I loved the article.  This is why I read AOM religiously.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>just wanted to chime in and say I loved the article.  This is why I read AOM religiously.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenks</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-24126</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-24126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is the &#039;art of manliness&#039; distilled right down to the most important point.
As a society, we need to get over the idea that things need to happen quickly and with no effort required.
It&#039;s not meant to be easy! The sense of achievement when you complete something that was emotionally, physically or mentally exhausting has no rival. To do this and have made the world even a slightly better place is the crowning glory...
Sincere thanks for reminding we men of this important truth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the &#8216;art of manliness&#8217; distilled right down to the most important point.<br />
As a society, we need to get over the idea that things need to happen quickly and with no effort required.<br />
It&#8217;s not meant to be easy! The sense of achievement when you complete something that was emotionally, physically or mentally exhausting has no rival. To do this and have made the world even a slightly better place is the crowning glory&#8230;<br />
Sincere thanks for reminding we men of this important truth.</p>
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		<title>By: MG</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-24034</link>
		<dc:creator>MG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 02:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-24034</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott:
I think you &#039;saw the light&#039; with the whole Mark Twight discussion... but I think you have to realize that Twight was training grown men- not children.  And, these were &#039;men on a mission&#039;, not just ordinary men with the goal of busting their beer gut or something.  

It wasn&#039;t enough for one of the guys to get ripped... for the film to work, they ALL had to achieve the goal.  Honestly I&#039;m not a huge fan of Twight... but obviously what he did worked.  He did what you see all military, and especially elite military units do: break down the individual and raise him up as a team player.  This can be done through name calling, shame, humiliation... but you don&#039;t break down guys, and find out who really wants to be there by simply handing out positive reinforcement.  While positive reinforcement can be good, as Cam stated, for these men, it was earned... through extremely hard work.

Bottom line: I wouldn&#039;t want Mark Twight to raise my daughter (if I had one)... but if you want to get a bunch of dudes together and get them ripped... what he does works.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott:<br />
I think you &#8216;saw the light&#8217; with the whole Mark Twight discussion&#8230; but I think you have to realize that Twight was training grown men- not children.  And, these were &#8216;men on a mission&#8217;, not just ordinary men with the goal of busting their beer gut or something.  </p>
<p>It wasn&#8217;t enough for one of the guys to get ripped&#8230; for the film to work, they ALL had to achieve the goal.  Honestly I&#8217;m not a huge fan of Twight&#8230; but obviously what he did worked.  He did what you see all military, and especially elite military units do: break down the individual and raise him up as a team player.  This can be done through name calling, shame, humiliation&#8230; but you don&#8217;t break down guys, and find out who really wants to be there by simply handing out positive reinforcement.  While positive reinforcement can be good, as Cam stated, for these men, it was earned&#8230; through extremely hard work.</p>
<p>Bottom line: I wouldn&#8217;t want Mark Twight to raise my daughter (if I had one)&#8230; but if you want to get a bunch of dudes together and get them ripped&#8230; what he does works.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-24031</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-24031</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott - I think you hit the nail on the head in your second post when you referred to &quot;a double bell curve&quot;. We hear plenty about lazy, government-dependent adults and video game crazed young adults/kids who have this sense of entitlement about them. But there are still plenty of honest, hard working Americans in all generations.

I would meet in the middle on the proper way to use discipline (whether it be coaching, parenting, etc). Different people respond well to different methods. Personally, I loved it when a coach would ride my tail to get me to work harder and I responded to that well. I still ride myself when I train. But I can see how that method would discourage many people, ultimately leading to quitting. It&#039;s a challenge for coaches and parents to recognize the method to which the athlete or child best responds. The reality is that a one-size-fits-all answer is the easy way out. Maybe the harder approach works here, too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott &#8211; I think you hit the nail on the head in your second post when you referred to &#8220;a double bell curve&#8221;. We hear plenty about lazy, government-dependent adults and video game crazed young adults/kids who have this sense of entitlement about them. But there are still plenty of honest, hard working Americans in all generations.</p>
<p>I would meet in the middle on the proper way to use discipline (whether it be coaching, parenting, etc). Different people respond well to different methods. Personally, I loved it when a coach would ride my tail to get me to work harder and I responded to that well. I still ride myself when I train. But I can see how that method would discourage many people, ultimately leading to quitting. It&#8217;s a challenge for coaches and parents to recognize the method to which the athlete or child best responds. The reality is that a one-size-fits-all answer is the easy way out. Maybe the harder approach works here, too.</p>
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		<title>By: WOTN</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-24030</link>
		<dc:creator>WOTN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-24030</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you want to see Real Men that Don&#039;t Quit.  If you want to find someone to inspire others to greatness see this site: http://waronterrornews.typepad.com/overcoming_adversity/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to see Real Men that Don&#8217;t Quit.  If you want to find someone to inspire others to greatness see this site: <a href="http://waronterrornews.typepad.com/overcoming_adversity/" rel="nofollow">http://waronterrornews.typepad.com/overcoming_adversity/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/03/16/the-hard-way/comment-page-1/#comment-24029</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1611#comment-24029</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cameron --

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment.  If I may respond back....

One major problem that complicates any discussion of the United States (and which confronts us with a complex future) is that America has gone from a country that could be described as a bell curve to a country that is a double bell curve.  That is, we have one part of the population that is doing very well, is very ambitious, hardworking, creative, educated, assertive, etc.  The young people that I have met in this group strike me as extraordinary and they give me great hope for the future.

On the other hand, we have another significant portion of the population that is extremely dysfunctional and manifest many of the social ills that we are concened about.  I think that the group in the middle is diminishing which is why we may need to clarify which &quot;America&quot; we are speaking about.

The impulsivity that you speak of has many origins -- poverty is one of them.

I am glad that you agree that meaning comes first and that hard work serves meaning.

The shame and humiliation issue...

First of all, where are children told that they are special?  I feel like this is some kind of urban legend.  Having raised two children (20 and 17), been involved in youth sports, and being married to an educator, I have never seen this.  Even if you did try it, the kids would not believe it anyway -- they have a very keen sense of the pecking order.

A healthy self-love, which comes, in part, from the experience of being loved, is a great gift that can help see us through the dark times and give us the ability to persevere in the face of opposition.  Narcissism is a pathological condition that is a defense or overcompensation against terrible feelings of defectiveness and self-criticism.  That is why celebrities have so many problems -- they do not have a healthy core filled with a positive sense of self.

Hopefully, Twight is just giving a &quot;tough guy&quot; narrative.  In Baumrind&#039;s work on parenting, she found that Authoritative, not Authoritarian, parents were the best.  These parents were loving and affirming while also providing clear limits -- they were not cruel and arbitrary and they were not laissez-faire.

In terms of actors who have often trained for years, in the face of adversity and poverty, to get where they are, Twight probably had an ideal group to work with - not weak-willed men with no backbone.

So, I believe in the power of hard work, but context is everything.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cameron &#8211;</p>
<p>Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment.  If I may respond back&#8230;.</p>
<p>One major problem that complicates any discussion of the United States (and which confronts us with a complex future) is that America has gone from a country that could be described as a bell curve to a country that is a double bell curve.  That is, we have one part of the population that is doing very well, is very ambitious, hardworking, creative, educated, assertive, etc.  The young people that I have met in this group strike me as extraordinary and they give me great hope for the future.</p>
<p>On the other hand, we have another significant portion of the population that is extremely dysfunctional and manifest many of the social ills that we are concened about.  I think that the group in the middle is diminishing which is why we may need to clarify which &#8220;America&#8221; we are speaking about.</p>
<p>The impulsivity that you speak of has many origins &#8212; poverty is one of them.</p>
<p>I am glad that you agree that meaning comes first and that hard work serves meaning.</p>
<p>The shame and humiliation issue&#8230;</p>
<p>First of all, where are children told that they are special?  I feel like this is some kind of urban legend.  Having raised two children (20 and 17), been involved in youth sports, and being married to an educator, I have never seen this.  Even if you did try it, the kids would not believe it anyway &#8212; they have a very keen sense of the pecking order.</p>
<p>A healthy self-love, which comes, in part, from the experience of being loved, is a great gift that can help see us through the dark times and give us the ability to persevere in the face of opposition.  Narcissism is a pathological condition that is a defense or overcompensation against terrible feelings of defectiveness and self-criticism.  That is why celebrities have so many problems &#8212; they do not have a healthy core filled with a positive sense of self.</p>
<p>Hopefully, Twight is just giving a &#8220;tough guy&#8221; narrative.  In Baumrind&#8217;s work on parenting, she found that Authoritative, not Authoritarian, parents were the best.  These parents were loving and affirming while also providing clear limits &#8212; they were not cruel and arbitrary and they were not laissez-faire.</p>
<p>In terms of actors who have often trained for years, in the face of adversity and poverty, to get where they are, Twight probably had an ideal group to work with &#8211; not weak-willed men with no backbone.</p>
<p>So, I believe in the power of hard work, but context is everything.</p>
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