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	<title>Comments on: The Art of Manliness Weekly Roundup: Men&#8217;s Grill Edition</title>
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	<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/</link>
	<description>Men&#039;s Interests and Lifestyle</description>
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		<title>By: Rick S.</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-100978</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 17:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-100978</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ooops, PC forgotten.

Yes, women need places of their own to hang out together with no men allowed.  Men don&#039;t want to talk about on quite a few of the issues women want to discuss and women don&#039;t want to talk about certain issues or topics with men around.  So why can&#039;t they have their own &#039;Women only&#039; clubs?  Call it &#039;The Women&#039;s Lounge&#039; or &#039;The Women&#039;s Retreat&#039;.  Decorate it appropriately and tastefully to ensure comfort and relaxed atmosphere for women.

There are places where I wouldn&#039;t expect to see a woman.  A men&#039;s room, men&#039;s locker room, and a men only club.  Men need to get away from their spouses and significant others just as much as women so what is the big deal about having a Men&#039;s Grill?  As long as the opposite sex has a similar retreat there shouldn&#039;t be an issue.  Just as women won&#039;t discuss important (to them) issues around men, men won&#039;t discuss important (to them) issues around women.  So having a uni-sex (one sex) retreat is important to both sexes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooops, PC forgotten.</p>
<p>Yes, women need places of their own to hang out together with no men allowed.  Men don&#8217;t want to talk about on quite a few of the issues women want to discuss and women don&#8217;t want to talk about certain issues or topics with men around.  So why can&#8217;t they have their own &#8216;Women only&#8217; clubs?  Call it &#8216;The Women&#8217;s Lounge&#8217; or &#8216;The Women&#8217;s Retreat&#8217;.  Decorate it appropriately and tastefully to ensure comfort and relaxed atmosphere for women.</p>
<p>There are places where I wouldn&#8217;t expect to see a woman.  A men&#8217;s room, men&#8217;s locker room, and a men only club.  Men need to get away from their spouses and significant others just as much as women so what is the big deal about having a Men&#8217;s Grill?  As long as the opposite sex has a similar retreat there shouldn&#8217;t be an issue.  Just as women won&#8217;t discuss important (to them) issues around men, men won&#8217;t discuss important (to them) issues around women.  So having a uni-sex (one sex) retreat is important to both sexes.</p>
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		<title>By: Cab Calloway &#8211; The Art of Manliness &#8211; The Hepster Dictionary &#171; Pasheen</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-99659</link>
		<dc:creator>Cab Calloway &#8211; The Art of Manliness &#8211; The Hepster Dictionary &#171; Pasheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-99659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Art of Manliness Weekly Roundup: Men’s Grill Edition Talk Like Frank Sinatra How to Tie a Tie 52 Workout Songs To Help You Get Bigger, Stronger, and Faster So You Want My Job: Guitarist [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Art of Manliness Weekly Roundup: Men’s Grill Edition Talk Like Frank Sinatra How to Tie a Tie 52 Workout Songs To Help You Get Bigger, Stronger, and Faster So You Want My Job: Guitarist [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-12892</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-12892</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My previous girlfriend&#039;s family belonged to a country club with a similar situation. Many times after a round of golf her father and i would have a scotch in the men only grill while the ladies waited in one of the other restaurants.  This tradition was set in the &#039;20&#039;s and the club is hard pressed to ever change it. The club made an effort to calm the squabble by dedicating one of the restaurants strictly to women. However, the Men&#039;s Grill is where all the best amenities are located (i.e. locker rooms, sauna, ect.) . In all my time spent there only during family events such as 4th of July fireworks were there women allowed in (after a hefty tip of course). In my opinion i think that the Men&#039;s Grill idea is one of greatness. True, men have the ball park, cigar bar, and such places that are typically not associated with women but they are also public. Personally i enjoyed those moments after a round of golf drinking scotch, having a smoke, and watching a game with the other men, With all the pressures we face at work, providing for a family, school, what have you it is a great feeling to just leave everything at the door.....much like your proverbial tree house with the &quot;no girls allowed&quot; sign. Juvenile, it may seem but the satisfaction remains.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My previous girlfriend&#8217;s family belonged to a country club with a similar situation. Many times after a round of golf her father and i would have a scotch in the men only grill while the ladies waited in one of the other restaurants.  This tradition was set in the &#8217;20&#8242;s and the club is hard pressed to ever change it. The club made an effort to calm the squabble by dedicating one of the restaurants strictly to women. However, the Men&#8217;s Grill is where all the best amenities are located (i.e. locker rooms, sauna, ect.) . In all my time spent there only during family events such as 4th of July fireworks were there women allowed in (after a hefty tip of course). In my opinion i think that the Men&#8217;s Grill idea is one of greatness. True, men have the ball park, cigar bar, and such places that are typically not associated with women but they are also public. Personally i enjoyed those moments after a round of golf drinking scotch, having a smoke, and watching a game with the other men, With all the pressures we face at work, providing for a family, school, what have you it is a great feeling to just leave everything at the door&#8230;..much like your proverbial tree house with the &#8220;no girls allowed&#8221; sign. Juvenile, it may seem but the satisfaction remains.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-6339</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-6339</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s not discrimination as long as no one prevents women from having women-only clubs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not discrimination as long as no one prevents women from having women-only clubs.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-5802</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-5802</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I second everything Dan just said.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second everything Dan just said.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-5782</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-5782</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Single gender places in our society are a good thing.  Women need places to go where they can speak their minds and enjoy each other&#039;s company without being judged, or &quot;sized-up&quot;, by men.  I guess Curves is one of these places.  It was established to provide a place for women to work out without men checking them out.  Let&#039;s face it guys, it is still very much a man&#039;s world out there.  Women are still very much objectified and if they need a place to go where they aren&#039;t, isn&#039;t that a good thing?

That being said, men need places like this too.  There has been too much of a tendency over the past few years to change men to be more &quot;acceptable&quot; to mixed company.  I&#039;m not talking about the base crotch-scratching and peeing on trees.  That&#039;s just childish.  But I am referring to men having a place to go where they can hang out and just be men without having to worry about women watching them and sizing them up too.  This does happen.  Don&#039;t deny it!  Men act differently when women are around and need a place to relax.  A PRIVATE facility is perfectly acceptable for this.  If people don&#039;t like it, as others have said, don&#039;t join!  Create a better, co-ed facility to compete with the single-sex one and let the best club win.  Women don&#039;t need to encroach into men&#039;s spaces and men don&#039;t need to invade women&#039;s spaces.  Everyone just needs to respect each other.  That sounds so simple, doesn&#039;t it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Single gender places in our society are a good thing.  Women need places to go where they can speak their minds and enjoy each other&#8217;s company without being judged, or &#8220;sized-up&#8221;, by men.  I guess Curves is one of these places.  It was established to provide a place for women to work out without men checking them out.  Let&#8217;s face it guys, it is still very much a man&#8217;s world out there.  Women are still very much objectified and if they need a place to go where they aren&#8217;t, isn&#8217;t that a good thing?</p>
<p>That being said, men need places like this too.  There has been too much of a tendency over the past few years to change men to be more &#8220;acceptable&#8221; to mixed company.  I&#8217;m not talking about the base crotch-scratching and peeing on trees.  That&#8217;s just childish.  But I am referring to men having a place to go where they can hang out and just be men without having to worry about women watching them and sizing them up too.  This does happen.  Don&#8217;t deny it!  Men act differently when women are around and need a place to relax.  A PRIVATE facility is perfectly acceptable for this.  If people don&#8217;t like it, as others have said, don&#8217;t join!  Create a better, co-ed facility to compete with the single-sex one and let the best club win.  Women don&#8217;t need to encroach into men&#8217;s spaces and men don&#8217;t need to invade women&#8217;s spaces.  Everyone just needs to respect each other.  That sounds so simple, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Jaye</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-5750</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 03:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-5750</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Monogendered places are usually sought out by both genders.  Men don&#039;t usually go off and demand access to Women only spaces, though it seems to happen occasionally in reverse.  This place didn&#039;t do things right, they tried but failed.  There are already examples of spaces which women have their own spaces and men do not venture, and you know what, THAT&#039;S COOL.  But its unfortunate that there is a &#039;shame factor&#039; involved in having a men&#039;s only space, and there is the occasional situation where women demand to be in such spaces, despite the desire to be in a monogendered space.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monogendered places are usually sought out by both genders.  Men don&#8217;t usually go off and demand access to Women only spaces, though it seems to happen occasionally in reverse.  This place didn&#8217;t do things right, they tried but failed.  There are already examples of spaces which women have their own spaces and men do not venture, and you know what, THAT&#8217;S COOL.  But its unfortunate that there is a &#8216;shame factor&#8217; involved in having a men&#8217;s only space, and there is the occasional situation where women demand to be in such spaces, despite the desire to be in a monogendered space.</p>
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		<title>By: Reid</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-5747</link>
		<dc:creator>Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-5747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ella has a point. Some men get pretty wound up about this issue, and have a tendency to act in some pretty ungentlemanly ways. The issue described is tough...a private club can indeed do as it sees fit. I can also understand why they would deem it prudent to have upgraded to equal facilities. Back to Ella&#039;s point though. We aren&#039;t at war with each other. There are times when I want to be in the company of men. Having had five sisters, frankly, there are times I would rather be in the company of women, but I wouldn&#039;t want to sue the Girl Scouts to do it. That being said, if I was going to open a club, ANY kind of club, and allow both sexes admission, I would deem it prudent to make sure there were equal facilities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ella has a point. Some men get pretty wound up about this issue, and have a tendency to act in some pretty ungentlemanly ways. The issue described is tough&#8230;a private club can indeed do as it sees fit. I can also understand why they would deem it prudent to have upgraded to equal facilities. Back to Ella&#8217;s point though. We aren&#8217;t at war with each other. There are times when I want to be in the company of men. Having had five sisters, frankly, there are times I would rather be in the company of women, but I wouldn&#8217;t want to sue the Girl Scouts to do it. That being said, if I was going to open a club, ANY kind of club, and allow both sexes admission, I would deem it prudent to make sure there were equal facilities.</p>
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		<title>By: DocDavis</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-5741</link>
		<dc:creator>DocDavis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-5741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg,
  You are absolutely right. No one has the nerve to stand up and call Curves- A women only gym -on discrimination. Yet there it is, plain as day, NO MEN ALLOWED. Why are men not accorded the same privilege? I think the main reason is that we, as men, are too quiet. We need to apply for membership and sue on the grounds of discrimination when it is rejected to bring the matter to light. Don&#039;t get me wrong, personally I have no problem with gender only clubs but whenever two men get together to talk some civil liberty do-gooder starts screaming &quot;Unfair Unfair&quot; and it is unfair. It&#039;s unfair to US.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,<br />
  You are absolutely right. No one has the nerve to stand up and call Curves- A women only gym -on discrimination. Yet there it is, plain as day, NO MEN ALLOWED. Why are men not accorded the same privilege? I think the main reason is that we, as men, are too quiet. We need to apply for membership and sue on the grounds of discrimination when it is rejected to bring the matter to light. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, personally I have no problem with gender only clubs but whenever two men get together to talk some civil liberty do-gooder starts screaming &#8220;Unfair Unfair&#8221; and it is unfair. It&#8217;s unfair to US.</p>
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		<title>By: SonofShiba</title>
		<link>http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/06/28/the-art-of-manliness-weekly-roundup-mens-grill-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-5739</link>
		<dc:creator>SonofShiba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=413#comment-5739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think some of you may have missed the point here. While the segregation of men and women -- unequally no less -- is certainly an immature and backwards policy for a country club of such apparently high regard, it&#039;s important to remember that it nonetheless is a private facility and can enact whatever policies regarding the sexes it wants (remember: freedom implies the freedom to be prejudice). I don&#039;t buy the Sitterts&#039;s argument -- or the attorney general&#039;s for that matter -- that just because the club holds events and tournaments it somehow is subject to public antidiscrimination laws. It just doesn&#039;t hold water for me. No one&#039;s tax money is being used to pay for the club, and people are free to join or leave the club at their own discretion (which is exactly what Mr. Sitterts and his wife should have done). Perhaps Brett can fill the legal holes in for me, but it just smacks of an attempt to grab voter attention by the Phoenix city government.

Yes, it was EXTREMELY childish the way the male members of the club acted as result of this situation, but is was equally childish that some people need to get the hand of government to interfere just because they don&#039;t like the way private individuals enact policies on their property. Instead of taking the more sensible route and simply leaving the club to join a new one with a more gender-equal policy, they decided to get attention-seeking bureaucrats involved, and the precedent it sets can&#039;t be good for anyone, male or female.

But I guess all&#039;s well that ends well, seeing how the club is renovating to accommodate better equality standards for women. They should have done this ages ago, but it&#039;s a shame that the threat of legal action -- as opposed to free choice and the power of the purse -- had to be the catalyst for change.

Just so I&#039;m clear, being fair and equal with both sexes is manly, and very much so I might add, but trying to shove equality down people&#039;s throats for insignificant reasons like this, isn&#039;t. A real man shows how to be a man; he doesn&#039;t force others to be a man for him.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think some of you may have missed the point here. While the segregation of men and women &#8212; unequally no less &#8212; is certainly an immature and backwards policy for a country club of such apparently high regard, it&#8217;s important to remember that it nonetheless is a private facility and can enact whatever policies regarding the sexes it wants (remember: freedom implies the freedom to be prejudice). I don&#8217;t buy the Sitterts&#8217;s argument &#8212; or the attorney general&#8217;s for that matter &#8212; that just because the club holds events and tournaments it somehow is subject to public antidiscrimination laws. It just doesn&#8217;t hold water for me. No one&#8217;s tax money is being used to pay for the club, and people are free to join or leave the club at their own discretion (which is exactly what Mr. Sitterts and his wife should have done). Perhaps Brett can fill the legal holes in for me, but it just smacks of an attempt to grab voter attention by the Phoenix city government.</p>
<p>Yes, it was EXTREMELY childish the way the male members of the club acted as result of this situation, but is was equally childish that some people need to get the hand of government to interfere just because they don&#8217;t like the way private individuals enact policies on their property. Instead of taking the more sensible route and simply leaving the club to join a new one with a more gender-equal policy, they decided to get attention-seeking bureaucrats involved, and the precedent it sets can&#8217;t be good for anyone, male or female.</p>
<p>But I guess all&#8217;s well that ends well, seeing how the club is renovating to accommodate better equality standards for women. They should have done this ages ago, but it&#8217;s a shame that the threat of legal action &#8212; as opposed to free choice and the power of the purse &#8212; had to be the catalyst for change.</p>
<p>Just so I&#8217;m clear, being fair and equal with both sexes is manly, and very much so I might add, but trying to shove equality down people&#8217;s throats for insignificant reasons like this, isn&#8217;t. A real man shows how to be a man; he doesn&#8217;t force others to be a man for him.</p>
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