Stop Hanging Out With Women and Start Dating Them

by Brett and Kate McKay on January 16, 2008 · 383 comments

in Dating, Relationships & Family

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Over the past few years, many social observers have noted that young adults are dating less. Instead, dating is being replaced by “hanging out” with members of the opposite sex. Dating and hanging out are two completely different things.

Hanging out consists of people getting together in groups and doing stuff together. It could be going to a club, a restaurant, or just staying home and playing Wii. The atmosphere is relaxed and relations among opposite sexes never rises above the level of friendship (or friendship with benefits). There is nothing wrong with hanging out, but it is not a replacement for dating.

Dating consists of pairing off with someone in a temporary commitment so you can get to know the person better and perhaps start a long term relationship with them.

Why the decline in dating?

There are probably lots of factors that have contributed to the decline of dating amongst young adults. Here are few possible ones:

1. Young adults don’t like to commit. It seems like people in my generation aren’t big on making commitments to people or to organizations. Generation Y is too busy trying to “find themselves” in order to commit to anybody or anything. Companies have complained about the turn over rate of Generation Y. Companies invest lots of money training new employees only to have them leave after two years so they can find a new job. This reluctance to commit has carried over to the interaction between the sexes. Young adults don’t want to be tied down to someone just in case they get an itch to go on a backpacking trip to Europe.

2. The internet has retarded Generation Y’s social skills. Instead of telling a person directly that they’re interested in them by asking them on a date, Generation Y sends Crush alerts on Facebook. While the internet has made connecting with people easier, it has also made us lazier at establishing meaningful relationships. If you’re over 18 and you’re still using Facebook applications to let someone know you’re interested in them, you need to be punched in the face.

3. Feminism. Before I receive the wrath of all the feminists telling me it’s a typical man thing to blame women for the decline in dating, I ask that you hear me out. I think feminism is great. It’s great that women can choose to have a career, be a stay-at-home mom, or do both.

But it does make things confusing for men. Navigating relations among the sexes is a bit more tricky today. Men have all these questions go through their head: Who asks? If I ask, will she think I’m too forward? Who pays for the date? Do we split the bill? All these uncertainties cause men to avoid dating altogether and opt for hanging out with women instead.

4. Men today are wussies. Men today aren’t very resilient. They don’t know how to handle rejection or failure, so they avoid rejection or failure by not asking women out on dates.

Why date?

A lot of men today don’t seem to believe it, but getting hitched to the right woman is a very desirable thing.

So while there is nothing wrong with hanging out, it’s not a replacement for dating. Dating is the pathway to finding your true love and eventually settling down and getting married. Marriage is a one on one relationship, so you need to start getting to know women on a one on one basis. You might be hanging out with her and your friends right now, but if you don’t take her on date, she’ll forever be just your friend. So, start dating and stop hanging out. It really is not that hard to get a date with a woman. Here are some guidelines to remember as you take hanging out up a level to dating.

Resurrect Dating

So, you’re ready to start dating and stop hanging out. It really is not that hard to get a date with a woman. Here are some guidelines to remember as you take hanging out up a level to dating.

1. She wants you to ask. Despite the rhetoric you hear about the liberated woman, women still appreciate it when a guy asks her out on a date. They like when men take the initiative. I’ve heard lots of successful young professional women lament the fact that men don’t ask them out. They’re beautiful, smart, and charming, but don’t have a man. Be a man and ask these women out.

2. Asking is easy. Asking a woman out on a date isn’t rocket science. When you ask, though, do it in person or over the phone. If you’re poking a woman you’re interested in on Facebook, you lose any credibility as a man.

3. Keep dates simple. Dates don’t have to be huge, expensive affairs. Keep it simple. If you want to keep things informal, ask her out for lunch or coffee. If you want a more romantic date, invite her over to your place and make dinner for her. She’ll be impressed that you know how to cook. The whole point of dating is to get some one on one interaction with a person to find out if she is someone you’d like to start a long term relationship with. Simple and frequent dates will assist you in this.

4. Prepare for rejection. Face it. Not every woman you ask out is going to say yes. Prepare for that. It’s no big deal if she says no. Think about it. You’re no worse off getting rejected than you were before you asked. You didn’t have a date with her before, you don’t have a date with her now. Your situation has not changed.

5. Just do it, damn it. So what are you waiting for? Quit reading this post right now and pick up your cell phone. Call a woman and ask her on a date. Stop hanging out and start dating. Stop being scared of commitment. Commitment is liberating, not confining.

I expect a lot of debate on this post. Please keep the conversation civil. It’s possible to disagree and still be a gentleman or a lady about it.

Image from DeborahK.

{ 379 comments… read them below or add one }

201 Stan July 25, 2010 at 1:48 am

Date a woman you like, hang out with your friends.

@Sarah. While I do appreciate your insight, I think one key point was missed, dating and hanging out are two totally different things with different purposes. The world could be very simple, if you date a girl, then you can also be hanging out with her and getting to know her more. Likewise, if you hang out with a girl, grab a beer, play soccer then go home and tell the girl your dating about what you did with your friend or friends today (just hope they’re not the jealous type). You see! The world can be simple.
The problem with just hanging out is that people only swim around the idea of being in a relationship and are too afraid of jumping in. Stop dipping your feet in the water, you can’t enjoy swimming by getting only your toes wet. This is why I agree so much with this article: “Just do it damn it.” Jump in! You can not have a romantic relationship with a friend.

-Stan

202 t bird July 27, 2010 at 11:41 am

Enjoyed the article. I am a mother of 2 daughters. My one daughter really did not want to go to prom as a group – but with a date. She hinted and hinted – did the facebook poke. Ten days before prom – she asked him. They are now dating and
having a wonderful time. She never expected more than a prom date – but is now in a relationship and not only having fun, but learning great comunication skills too.
Sadly, I think my advice to my daughters is that you have to make the first move.

Patty

203 Jay July 30, 2010 at 2:17 pm

Christ. I am all for men asking women out – it’s always flattering to be asked out. But to all the women in the comments complaining about sending “obvious” signals and getting frustrated when he doesn’t ask you out? Ask him out, then! The only person you can control is you – and you’re perfectly capable of doing the asking. I’m a woman and I’ve been asking guys out – or making the first move – or proposing lunch or something, ever since I started dating. One of you has to do it. If the signals are right, but he’s shy, then it might as well be you. It saves time, frustration, and wasted “hints.”

I hate, hate, hate that social model where the woman never requests anything outright, just drops “hints” and expects the man to be a mind-reader. It’s useless and creates problems where there wouldn’t be if both people would just – yes, MAN UP and communicate with each other clearly. With WORDS. If you want something, go for it. It won’t come to you by itself. So in a way, I’ve arrived at the same conclusions in the article, just from the other side.

204 SpySheriff July 31, 2010 at 5:34 pm

All this conflicting stuff gets confusing for me. I guess this explains how I’ve never gone out before, 21 years old here.

205 Evil Dick August 3, 2010 at 10:21 am

What is up with the pussies on here complaining about damn being a cuss word? Pick your sack up and quit being a jackwagon you girlie half-men.

206 Bilwick August 3, 2010 at 12:52 pm

I hate dating: especially when it’s designed to “help me to get to know someone better,” since–of all the ways people have come up with to allow one person to know the other–dating seems the poorest. The people, men and women, who have gotten to know me best did so by “hanging out” with me over a period of time; and vice versa. From that pool of women I hang out with (I’m a straight man) eventually I have sex with some. After we have sex then I might “date” them, in the sense of going out to dinner and/or a movie with them. But by then we already know each other to know we’re compatible, and neither of us have to go thought all that boring small talk.

207 Bonjo Getripped August 6, 2010 at 3:36 am

lol @ Evil Dick.

The best way I discovered to date women is to go on pre-dates or mini-dates. Something simple like a quick 15 minute coffee or 1 drink at the pub. On a mini-date never go to dinner or spend lot’s of money. 5 dollars max. And always act like you have to be somewhere else. Leave early. Mini-date should not last more than 25 minutes. If your not vibing or clicking well this is perfect for ending the date without having to experience to many awkward moments. Always tell her “I have another committment or I have to take my dog to the vet for herpes shots or I have to go work soon I’m volunteering to save the albino monkeys so we have to make this quick.” With a quick meeting like this you can find out plenty of things about the girl. It’s pretty much a screening to find out if:

1. She just wants to have sexual relations
2. She just wants a serious relationship
3. If she’s crazy
4. If she’s interesting enough to go on an official date.
5. If she’s after my money
6. If she’s girlfriendable or wifeable

But the whole point of dating is to find the right mate.Find your partner. Then mate and create a team. Also known as a family. So make it fun! Date-Mate-Create!

208 Patrick August 6, 2010 at 1:42 pm

My attitude to the whole dating/hanging out thing is whatever works for you is great. The potential problem with hanging out is that it has a greater chance of stonewalling you into friends-only. Call me cheesy, or old fashioned, but I’ve always thought the idea of romantically sweeping a woman off her feet is thrilling and fun. There are barriers in group situations that make that tough, however I have seen men thrill women consistently in groups as well. I’ve tried the hanging out option, but it doesn’t seem to get the point across for me and I end up friends with the few single women in my social circle.

The problem with dating is that it can become awkward, but this can be the fault of one or both parties. Dating doesn’t have to be grueling – and in fact the point of dates are to make it as easy for you and her as possible. I think that a lot of awkwardness can be avoided with some proper preparation and flexibility in the date. I love to bring social game ideas (not emotional, manipulation games) and some complex questions to fill in those awkward silences. It makes for good conversations, and allows you to really get to know each other well. We all wear masks in different social situations. For example, some of my friends act really different in group situations than one-on-one. In relationships I think its very important that you be able to be together comfortably in any social situation, be it group, one-on-one, formal, informal, etc. I think that starting dating early allows you to judge your one-on-one compatibility and that the other situations can more easily be worked on if you start with that.

My mother always is stunned at the perception of dating today for HS, and college. She says “in her day” dating was always just a casual way to get to know each other, and until you made commitments it was understood that both parties would date multiple people at once. I think that’s how it should be.

Don’t get trapped by being too worried about how the date goes, just be there and present the image of who you are as accurately as possible and everything will work out or it won’t. No loss to you either way.

I fully support women asking men out. If that happened, I’d be more likely to date a woman I haven’t noticed, of didn’t intend to ask out. Confidence is attractive to both sexes in my opinion. And as for boys losing interest if the woman asks them out… what does that say about them? To me, it suggests they are either controlling or not sure enough of themselves so they’re offended by the prospect of getting asked out. I would be utterly flattered, because it’s a strong compliment.

In the end, it’s a numbers game (for men and women). The more people you meet, the more likely that you will find the woman that takes your breath away. So I use both approaches as often as possible.

As for the PUA debate from Sasser, I think it depends on who you’re after. If you’re after promiscuous clubbers, or looking for a mostly sexual relationship that may work. If you really are after a companion that may perhaps lead to a committed relationship… this is probably a bad idea (Negs are particularly a bad idea, in my opinion).

However, I do think that there are a few things to say for PUA. I think canned lines, specific patterns of initiating conversation, etc. are crutches. Like crutches, they help you to start out when asking women out, but after that you should develop your own methods, and go beyond canned PUA “technology”. Personally, I read some of that, but I only use the “technology” as examples, to think of things that fit my personality. Some of the things like IOI’s, and other parts of it more based in psychology, and social evolution I find interesting and informative. I’m not interested in manipulating women and if she says no, big deal. I tried and I’ll feel better about myself no matter the answer.

I’m also of the opinion that a “true man” would be confident comfortable in whatever social situation he finds himself in – be it dates, hanging out, football games, baby sitting, whatever. I’m not there yet but I’m working on it.

209 Walter August 19, 2010 at 12:26 pm

“You need to be punched in the face” – I love it! On a serious note, technology and social media is great, to a point. It has, in fact, turned our younger generation into social morans. I’m 26 yrs old, and I’m glad Facebook was not around when I was in highschool. It’s a sad sad state of affairs for younger people, who can’t simply pick up the phone (BOTH MEN AND WOMEN) and just call eachother. Oh, and don’t get me started on the whole texting bit…..that’s another story in itself. Great read!!

210 Joe September 23, 2012 at 11:58 am

Good god I can’t agree more with how social media is impeding our generations ability to socially function in real life. I’m 22 year old and just recently I got sick of Facebook, Instagram and all that other hoop-lahh. So I got rid of them. Turns out, I’m as shy as they come. I have some social rehabilitating to do (in the real world) but not being tethered to social media is so liberating. I’m excited to where this wil lead as far as confidence to ask a gal out. If you’re glued to your phone, try and go a week or two with out social media. It’s awesome.

211 meh September 24, 2012 at 10:08 pm

I’ve asked out multiple girls in my life. More than I can count. I dont do that wimpy facebook stuff unless there really is no other means of communication. I’ve only dated 3 girls in my life, and two of those asked me before I ever got around to it. Honeslty I would not have even thought they’d be interested if they had not told me so. Its not always a matter of gutts since i spend plenty of time building up nerve as its more a matter of stradegy. Picking your battles wisely. The fact that plenty of the girls that are interested in me are not girls i would otherwise consider is ironically something I should consider.

212 meh September 24, 2012 at 10:14 pm

Do any of you guys ever get in that situation where you just like hanging out with a ton of women, but you realize that if you dated one of them, like in a committed relationship manner, you’d have to abandon the rest, and then you just dont know if you ever could decide which one to choose?

213 Val October 6, 2012 at 10:19 pm

Everyone is different; hence there is a different approach to dating for every person. For me, I was always asked out on a date up until I met my husband who is incredibly shy. We got along really well, we had the same sense of humor but he used letters and the internet to win me over, in person he drew up into a shell. In this case, I was pretty aggressive because A) I was totally smitten with him and B) He was my best friend, and he seemed…kind of stuck on the hanging out/ambiguous thing. Anyway, several bottles of wine and a set of lingerie later, we got engaged and now we’re married.

214 Phaedre October 10, 2012 at 4:45 am

Number four is vital. It’s unpleasant turning someone down, and it’s only gentlemanly to be graceful about it so it’s easier for both of you. Also, too many guys these days need this spelled out: no one owes you their time, nevermind a date. Acting like you were denied something you were entitled to, or being bitter, is just going to make someone relieved they turned you down.

While I agree it’s infinitely preferable to be clear about your intentions with a prospective partner than be yet another one of those NiceGuy(tm) jerks, sometimes outright dates can be awkward. Val’s right, there only right way is whatever fits the particular people involved.

Personally, it’s nicer to hang out in no-pressure, social encounters, and then if you have chemistry and mutual interest, try a casual date. The best first dates I’ve been on have been “non-dates”; the lack of pressure allows much more authenticity, as you see the interaction as one to be enjoyed, like a friendship, rather than a stressful interviewing process. Having mutual friends means I know you can’t get away with not treating me well.

A friend of mine has worked very hard her whole life, and likes being treated like a lady. To her that means he won’t waste her time trying to impress her if that means hiding who he is until weeks down the road. Picking a date that says something about who he is – to her – is a sign of a guy who’s strong enough in himself to be evaluated on his compatibility.

Another reason to get to know someone before asking them out: It’s super dehumanizing for a guy to want to date me when they’ve had maybe one superficial conversation with me. It’s not worth it to spend my time dealing with guys who don’t even acknowledge that I’m a person (you know, with insights, a psyche, opinions, passions) rather than just someone who exists to fill your ‘need’ for a girlfriend.

215 absolutely true October 10, 2012 at 2:37 pm

women back then were certainly a lot easier to meet and date, unlike now that many of them have an attitude problem and are playing very hard to get. there are not that many good women like we had years ago, and many women accepted the man for who he was. today they seem to want the RICH man instead, and have become so very spoiled and want whatever they can get.

216 John October 15, 2012 at 7:47 pm

As great as all this sounds, I just really don’t think it’s that simple. I feel like all I hear so much from girls is that they’re tired of being hit on and asked out by creepers and losers and other dudes – they’re just not interested in dating every guy they meet. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that at all…but it means that when a genuinely nice guy comes along and just tries to be friendly (read as “not a total creeper just looking to get her number for a date”) he automatically and perpetually gets put in the friend zone. And once you’re there, it’s pretty tough to get out.

217 Nathan October 25, 2012 at 2:08 pm

“The whole point of dating is to get some one on one interaction with a person to find out if she is someone you’d like to start a long term relationship with.”

This!!!! Thank you so much for saying this. Women/current girls of generation Y need to read this. NOW!

218 kevin October 29, 2012 at 7:06 am

I think the decline in “dating” is the fact that women now work just as much as men, but still expect men to pay for everything. I’ve found this really annoying. I’m not cheap at all but when you’re searching for a potential girlfriend, you can take dozens and dozens of women out on dates which adds up to a fortune.

It bothers me because they expect men to subscribe to traditional gender roles but they don’t want to follow any gender roles themselves. Know any women under the age of 40 that can cook? I sure don’t. I’ll start “dating” women, when they start ironing my shirts and making me lunch. ;) Besides, paying for dates was supposed to be for back when women didn’t work. NOW they do and a lot of them have good jobs. Equality means EQUALITY, not preferential treatment. I think a lot of men are catching on to this as they should. We’re being shafted.

Don’t shoot the messenger. It’s just my opinion.

219 Trevor October 31, 2012 at 3:34 am

Kudos to Elder Oaks for the premise of this article…

220 Godly October 31, 2012 at 10:57 am

Women complain about being “equal” with men but yet they don’t pay, don’t cook, don’t get the balls to ask out, etc. And to the really beautiful girls out there, if you are crying because your hot douchebag boyfriend dump you find a decent looking guy and most likely he will be much more compatible and sweet. Just sayin’ ~

221 Kyle November 7, 2012 at 9:06 am

I might disagree with the “She wants you to ask” section. Men tend to overestimate a woman’s interest in them. Its natural and understandable as a reproductive tactic. However, just asking because a guy thinks she’s interested is more likely to be off target than not.

http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/everybody-is-stupid-except-you/201203/do-men-strike-out-so-much-because-it-helps-them-score

222 Kristina Marchant November 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm

Men today are wussies and women are too scared to be vulnerable and honest! It’s a tough dating scene out there.

223 Patrick November 15, 2012 at 3:29 pm

An excellent article, and I agree with virtually all the points made- feminism, which I heartily endorse, has made it harder, simply because the traditional gender roles have gotten blurred.

There has been a loss on the other side of the gender divide, too, however, that makes it even harder (not to take away from the point that we, as men, must not give up the ability to initiate romantic contact): graciousness is a lost art among women.

I have met VERY few women that could actually turn a man down without rejecting him, and there is a huge difference. A gracious woman (or man) can decline you and still make you feel good about yourself- that is the point of courtesy and graciousness: to refuse someone without offense or the cause of hurt. This, too, is a lost art. And, in the face of the clumsy “rejection” that most men must face today, it takes all the more thick skin to put yourself out there.

But, has this article points out, it is not only quite worth it- it is Manly.

224 Dennise November 17, 2012 at 9:05 am

Another issue I have witnessed with my sons it the expense of dating. Finding flexible part-time jobs while they are in school has gotten a lot more competitive in the current economy.

225 Jim November 20, 2012 at 10:39 pm

I agree with this article. The rise of feminism is the cause that has lead to the confusion about traditional roles. But, only because men (boys) have become wussies by letting the feminists get away with it. The womens movment is fine for redefining women if thats what they desire. But why men ever went along with being redefined by them as well in the process I will never understand. “I dont like to ask women out because they no longer graciously decline, but instead are offensive and reject you.”
Oh please, Boo Hoo. Go ask mommy to wipe your nose. Stop being so sensitive and making the rest of us look like little girls. As a young man if I wanted a date, I asked. If I walked into a bar and decided I was going home with somebody, I would start at one end and work my way through to the other until in no uncertain terms I found a girl that knew exactly what I wanted.
You want to talk about rejection? I got slapped, had drinks thrown on me, got into fights with the un-noticed boyfriend, thrown out by her brother the bouncer, the list goes on and on. But you know what? After going through half the bar, I went home with one of them. Stop letting emotions like rejection dictate your actions. Thats what women do. Your a man. Be a man, and you wont be confused.

226 nick November 25, 2012 at 1:16 pm

try being someone who isnt socially wired and doesnt know all the social rules cause their brain cant process them. cause everytime i asked women out i got fed BS. yes everytime ive been rejected and its such FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHHAHA!!!! NOT!!!!!

227 Ste December 1, 2012 at 6:38 pm

I hate dating. I can never find the right girl for one or the money to afford one. I’m 21 and there really ain’t much jobs going around, even if there is, I’m loaded with assignments and don’t have enough time to work.

I think the most annoying part on how all these women care about these days is having sex, partying and doing drugs. I’m an outdoors man, I love going out in the wild, I love taking a beating from nature, taking walks among the trees and observe all the hidden ecology but I can just never find the right one. If it isn’t that I’m faced with the other extreme,women who just like men for cars and money and I have neither.

Just like most people on here I am also sick of all this social networking nonsense. I mean yeah, the internet is great but it has turned everyone into a mindless zombie.

228 James December 4, 2012 at 1:10 am

I am a 16 year old currently having the time of my life. I have acquired a vast amount of experience from dating many girls (Yes, I sound like, for lack of a better word, a manwhore). But no. For every adult and teenage man out there, the key is to stay the gentleman and be chivalrous. The women love it. But the most important element is to be forward. As a social group, men will hear it all the time, but will not act upon it. At the moment, I met an amazingly attractive girl, who literally seems like she came out of a dream. Asked her out on a dinner date( and a couple more informal ones where I cooked or went on walks etc), and guess what? She said yes and we had a good time. Moral of the story is, this generation is losing its “mojo”. The writer of this article could not be more correct of the matters, technology and the new “fad” for being lazy and ill committed has corrupted a guys and girls senses. Its fine to go out of tradition such as the girl asking the guy, or if it is a gay relationship, but it seems like the guys from this generation expect the girl to come to them. Wrong. Its time for us guys to kick it up two notches and experience the best part and addiction of life: Love.

229 James December 4, 2012 at 1:18 am

And as another note: Girls, or moms, dads etc out there, tell your daughters that playing hard to get is not the way to go, especially if hard to get is impossible. It can hurt a guy after he has put a grandiose amount of effort. Plus, illegitimate reasons never work. It only increases drama production.

230 Chuck December 6, 2012 at 10:46 pm

I just want to say that I agree with Jim.

231 Diana December 9, 2012 at 1:24 am

Interesting article!
While everyone’s circumstances are different, the advice of “stop hanging out with women and start dating them” is sound.

I saw that some men were complaining about paying for dates. That’s… well, it doesn’t sound like the calm, confident voice of a manly man. It sounds like the whimpering and whining of a weak manchild.

I would never consider a man who didn’t offer to pay for the first date, especially when it’s just coffee/tea. To me, it speaks to a personality flaw much more than financial situation; speaking to the far future, such a man cannot be expected to hold up the family if I’m ever unable to work (which is certain to happen when there are kids involved).

232 Aaron December 11, 2012 at 2:08 pm

I’m unhappy with all of the blame that social media gets for de-socializing my generation. When used correctly, sites like facebook and twitter allow for people to share information with large groups of people all across the world. They allow for the easier organization of social events; it’s now easier than ever to host a party or get a group together to go to a public event. Facebook and the like have become invaluable tools for connecting friends.

Additionally, because I have moved away from my home town for college, social media has allowed me to keep friends that I might otherwise have lost. Even though we are hundreds of miles away we can still talk on a daily or weekly basis. Without social media, there are close friends that I’ve known for my whole life that I might have lost that I now can keep in touch with.

Although it can be misused, I believe that social media is a good thing, and is a great tool for connecting people across the globe when used properly.

233 Julia December 12, 2012 at 5:33 am

I fully agree with your article’s point #4, that men today are afraid of rejection and that’s why they don’t want even to try. It is sad, but you need to be active in order to find a good date and build normal relationships.

234 dave December 12, 2012 at 5:33 pm

Ms. Diana – Just because the guy wants to go dutch on the first date ( you were so wonderful and kind to accept) you say he cannot be a good provider down the road? How convenient!

235 rb December 27, 2012 at 1:01 pm

It’s confusing for girls, too…..I married my college boyfriend, so never dated as an adult…recently divorced and now trying to figure it out. Women may be more likely to have the ability to pay, but most guys I’ve dated seem to have no qualms about paying for a first and second date. If we’re going to continue to see each other, then yes, we start taking turns. I did date a younger guy for a month – college student and single mom, not a good financial situation. He would invite me out and then ask me to pay when the check came – not cool. My current boyfriend tries to give me gas money when I need it, but gets upset if he feels like I expect him to pay for dates. It’s a confusing world – the best thing to do is just talk about it. We’re all wondering the same things.

236 L December 27, 2012 at 5:02 pm

Relating point 2 (asking in person) to point 4 (rejection): As a heterosexual woman, even if I reject someone who asks me out in person (which, to be honest, I’m less likely to do—both because I admire the sincere confidence and also because I’d be taken off guard), I leave that interaction with MUCH more respect for the man, even if he’s not someone I’m interested in dating.

I agree with so much of this article and particularly appreciated Patrick’s remarks above about the task of women to graciously reject without offense. Sounds difficult and highly subjective but well worth attempting to learn.

237 Has January 7, 2013 at 10:02 am

The thing is sometimes, girls say nothing and expect men to understand everything. Case in point:

I met a girl about 3 months ago. She works for an insurance company and is super busy. It was one of those times when just after looking in her eyes the first time, I knew I wanted to date her. I asked her out and she said yes, we can discuss the time on email etc. Then she kept postponing with the reason that she has to work even on weekends. I persisted because of the way I felt about her and finally just before christmas I sent her some flowers with a poem and some chocolates. My friends advised me against it but I wanted to somehow get things moving. In it I asked her to let me know if she is at all interested or we are just wasting our time. She wrote to say thanks and since then nothing!

Now I have no effing idea what the hell is wrong with me? My confidence is destroyed and I feel too embarrassed to discuss this someone.

238 JR January 10, 2013 at 6:19 am

Dear innocent Has – the thing is ALWAYS, girls say nothing and expect men to understand everything. The you-don’t understand/you didn’t tell me/you should have known anyway/how could I have, telepathy/oh you’ll never understand pitch has numerous applications (even when not so fully expressed). My wife is an intelligent woman, but 27 married years on my part of attempting to circumvent or undermine the illogicality of this bastion of female intellectual power has proved totally futile. This male-female relationship subroutine seems to be completely hard-wired, as inevitable and unchangeable as Persian cats having long hair, or politicians and bankers telling lies. More so, in fact. In general, I would say just let it drop, suffer in silence, and keep buying the flowers. In this particular case, I would say that you are being Sent a Message in Very Big Smoke(less) Signals – a bit like being told by her brother that the lady is washing her hair every time you try to phone (even on her Smartphone). At best, this looks much too much like hard work; it may even be annoying the young lady quite considerably, but she may be relying on your telepathic gifts to work this out and go away. In any event, unless positive feedback emerges quickly, better I think to let this drop. And do not despair – as W.S. Gilbert put it (in “The Mikado”), “there are lots of good fish in the sea !”. Best regards, JR.

239 EW January 14, 2013 at 7:58 pm

I recently got out of a long term relationship in my mid twenties. and in getting back out there i can tell you this. asking women on dates is critical.
there are thousands of guys out there playing some “hang out” game with them. Asking them out makes them aware of your intentions and stops the time wasting exercise. They will not all say yes, but they never get asked, you will be shocked how many will.

240 Hendrik January 17, 2013 at 3:42 am

Well maybe women might be the ones that have to decide what it is they want. A strong man, that does not really care if he is turned down brutally? So why bother in the first place?
A that does care and has the love and empathy that would cause a lot of hurt when he’s turned down?
This opposition between the “girl power” and “just be a man” is not helping much. Women want girl power, independency, making their own life, but still make a fuss about who is paying lunch? Well, I’d say, just be a woman, get over it, and pay alternatively.
In the end, you get what you think you deserve. If you are not happy with the dating prpcess, it will never lead to anything anyway.

241 Caitlin January 17, 2013 at 11:58 pm

Dear Has,
I think you did all you could do in that situation. It seems like you were courteous and kind (I especially think the touch of the flowers and poem was sweet). You put your best effort forth to try and communicate your intentions and desires to her; it’s her fault for not reciprocating. I think in a case like this, the problem was not anything that you did wrong. It’s simply that she was prioritizing her work over romance, and whenever you meet with a girl like that, you’re in for a tough trip. There’s plenty of self-centered, inconsiderate girls out there; but if you look carefully, you’ll find some real sweethearts too. Don’t let the fear of bad experiences keep you from trying again with someone new. Just get back in your saddle and be persistent.
Good luck!

242 Ad January 18, 2013 at 10:23 am

I completely agree with nearly all the points made above-especially Kevin and James, and I also wanted to stress the point made by Dennise- finding part-time jobs is becoming increasingly difficult

243 Zeke January 20, 2013 at 9:47 am

As great an article as this is, I feel it’s too old and traditional to apply to today’s mold of “dating”.

Let me explain, I use to be socially-awkward and would even pre-plan my conversations whenever I’d get into a social interaction with someone. It was just weird and I could tell the other person thought it was weird.

After stumbling upon some PUA and self-improvement material, I would get into so many interactions that I became very extroverted and comfortable in many situations. Issue was that I’d been approaching many women, for over a year. I did the usual clubs but I especially approached on the streets. Yes, I’d get into many great conversations and received many numbers. But that’s all they were, just numbers. I really liked the traditional style of dating, so I’d call first. The chicks never answered, so I’d leave a message. Never got a call back. I’d try texting, yeah I’d get a few responses(especially dumb ones that added no value to the conversation, I thought I was texting a chipmunk on ADD).

They never turned into anything else but a few dates(like 5 out of 40 numbers out of over 100 approaches) There would be even some girls I’d be chilling with who later turned out had the attention span of a squirrel. All in all it was just infuriating for me putting in lots of effort that year to put myself out there for such little return. All those great sincere, honest conversations I thought I was having only ended up being an “k” text or no response.

I think it’s so funny and ironic that girls complain that there are no good men out there, when there are some that take their time to approach them and try to go out on a date. But then due to distractions like drama, douche-bag guys, or silly insecurities they flake and opt out of a potential opportunity. Then after dealing with the douche-bag or stupid drama they complain again and again and it becomes a reverberating circle. Even when you hang-out, like in groups, you try establishing interest, but at that point they become so use to you that they just friend-zone you. It really is no use. You try setting up a nice date, nope you get bs. You try hanging out, nope you get friend-zoned.

I’ll admit, I’m happy I became a much more extroverted individual. But putting all this effort into courtship and getting nothing but bs. I don’t have time for that. I just want to work on self-development and become a happy individual following his purpose in life. I guess you really don’t need a woman for that.

244 Alan January 25, 2013 at 2:49 pm

Reading these comments is like reading comments about “How to fight.” You get a strong feeling that many of the opinions expressed are derived from the unholy get of television and fantasy..

245 chris January 25, 2013 at 9:52 pm

lolling at the feminism part. Written as tho the earth has been standing still since 1960. Perhaps it has for some people.

Here’s a thing: communicate! talk. Be partners, be friends, be lovers, be all of those things at once. You (dude) can pay sometimes, and then sometimes let her pay. Sometimes split. Amazing right? Did your head just explode?

Honestly, its 2013 here people..Its not hard to be civilized human beings, unhampered by intellectual impairment. Come back to the future, its ok :)

246 Taz January 26, 2013 at 12:39 am

The article points out: “great that women can choose to have a career, be a stay-at-home mom, or do both.”

All good and well. But what about the male. Why does the male have to accept that a woman wants a career or wants to stay at home or do both, yet it is socially expected that *he* does whatever she wants. ie she wants to stay at home, he has to work (or they’d be broke) and is looked apon as a pansy if he wants to watch his kids grow up.

I’m all for equal opportunity – thing is – it’s not equal when one side gets to decide and the other doesn’t. Sorry for the rant

247 Andy January 29, 2013 at 10:26 am

Great article.

One thing that always strikes me is that women are just as good or bad at dating as men are (depending how you want to view it). Give each other a break and just go for it without worrying about consequences, techniques and rejection. I read a lot on forums about how women are superior communicators etc.; I just don’t think this is true. A bad rejection may set you back, but remember that the person rejecting may be just plain an unskilled communicator – so let it go. It takes practice, mistakes and growth – none of us is the perfect being or has the whole picture but one thing is universally true; if you don’t try, you don’t get.

248 QELERH January 31, 2013 at 11:21 am

In as much men should ask women for a date, I feel women must also be serious with what they want. Stop wasting time when you are not ready just by telling men off. Stop waiting untill you see their pockets and then agree,no. Women nowadays are more interested in hunging out tham dates because they are more interested in monies or rather worlth.
My thought.

249 cori January 31, 2013 at 10:06 pm

I love this article, I love this website. I find a lot of men to be wussies, but then a woman with a degree is molecular biology can some what intimidating.

250 Matt February 2, 2013 at 7:50 am

Great article. I hate dating, not because i’m no good at it though, i talk worse than the guy from thank you for smoking. The reason is i tend to ask out girls i found attractive when on a bar or a nightclub, who might have been good looking and fun, but is no-where near my type. Mostly uneducated, vain, narrow-sighted and lacking ambitions. My real new years resolution is figure out where the hell i meet the right girls, except for at the university or work. I refuse to being overly forward and start hitting on girls in the library, cafe’s or whatever.

Any thoughts as to where you meet the right girl?

251 Dan February 3, 2013 at 1:59 pm

I’m skeptical. The picture at the top of the article is from an earlier extinct era. Women like the woman in that photo basically no longer exist or are elderly. Cultivating an old-fashioned manliness seems ill-advised nowadays since women are unwilling as a matter of principle to complement that behavior. Consider these two posts on a blog called the Art of Womanliness:
http://www.contentfac.com/blog/boss-bitch-manifesto-why-nice-girls-finish-last-in-life-and-in-business/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yashar-hedayat/a-message-to-women-from-a_1_b_958859.html
These are the type of response women will give to your calls for a traditional, sacrificial manliness.
Naturally, the author of that blog likes much of what this blog proposes, mainly because it disarms men in the face of today’s women. The only bogs that articulate necessities of manliness today are “Game” blogs such as http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/ which unfortunately also propose sexual impurity as a desirable goal.
The corollary to your active, strong and articulate manliness is a passive, fragile and submissive womanliness, which is considered completely unacceptable today outside of “ultra-conservative” religious groups.

252 backstad February 5, 2013 at 1:08 pm

Consider a new perspective: DATING AROUND.
Or “Serial dating” (aka going steady) versus “Dating around.”

Besides “hanging out”, another form of ego-protective dating is serial dating, that is, dating one person for a few months or years until you get sick of each other. You then go thru a painful period of increasingly less subtle signs of waning interest (e.g., cheating, along with other forms of passive aggressive rejection), until one or the other has the courage to break it off (figuratively), finally cutting one’s losses to some months or years of time lost hiding out, under the principle of “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.”

Just consider the missed opportunities with the many, many more than two “birds in the bush.” (Make your own pun.)

In dating around, you give yourself of one of the richest episodes of our lives. That is, you can meet, enjoy, learn from, and savor the unique values, personality, lifestyle, tastes, experiences, interests, body types, knowledge, and emotional competencies, available to all of us if we have the courage to challenge ourselves sufficiently.

It does take courage, but the risks decrease as your dating competency grows. Courtesy and compassion help as well. The game is not to get laid,although that can be a lovely by-product as well as a sweet trap, the primary goal is to learn. Learn how to be gracious, how to date, how to evaluate others, how to take in all the wonders of cultural difference in each new person, and how to keep dating around, as the temptations to “settle” add yet another interesting challenge to your education.

As one becomes more skilled, one’s chances of finding, appreciating, and deserving a more satisfying life partner greatly increase. Don’t get trapped by your own passivity into marrying someone because “the dating business is so expensive, and difficult, and risky…” and so on.

Set some goals, like at least two new people per month, no more than one date with the same person in any month, etc….

Come back here and report on your experience if you DATE AROUND!

Roger

P.S. Don’t forget to be loving.

253 Ardiana the adventurer February 6, 2013 at 5:13 pm

“Then she kept postponing with the reason that she has to work even on weekends. I persisted because of the way I felt about her and finally just before christmas I sent her some flowers with a poem and some chocolates. My friends advised me against it but I wanted to somehow get things moving. In it I asked her to let me know if she is at all interested or we are just wasting our time. She wrote to say thanks and since then nothing!”

Has,

you overdid it. Most men are just like you: they start out strong and confident, knowing what they want but then being excited they blow it up by messaging too much and as such appearing like total wussbags.

You NEVER call or text the girl twice in a row and you DAMN sure don’t send flowers and chocolate in advance. Who does that these days anyway? You call, if she doesn’t answer, leave a voicemail or message telling her what you were doing. If she doesn’t call back, leave her. There are plenty of fish in the sea. She will get your message, you don’t have to call 7 times a week.

This happened with me too. I met this hot redheaded 40 year old woman whose phone number I got. Turns out she was a bank clerk. I got fantasizing about what I might have with her the day before and reserved some condoms in case of a early meeting. Turns out the 1 day rule was too early. She sounded surprised when I called and I kinda felt I shot myself in the leg. The same excuse, have to work / be with my family on Christmas. Some PUA’s say 2-3 days after first meeting is better. Who knows, might work…

~AJ

254 Ardiana the adventurer February 6, 2013 at 5:35 pm

“All good and well. But what about the male. Why does the male have to accept that a woman wants a career or wants to stay at home or do both, yet it is socially expected that *he* does whatever she wants. ie she wants to stay at home, he has to work (or they’d be broke) and is looked apon as a pansy if he wants to watch his kids grow up.

I’m all for equal opportunity – thing is – it’s not equal when one side gets to decide and the other doesn’t. Sorry for the rant”

This kind of hits the red line in the middle of the difficulty of many men. Why should men find the time studying all this and bending backwards trying to be the ultimate man of romantic stories while still being themselves? Because women can’t? Becasue their brain wired differently. That’s certainly not equal.

I would view it from the perspective of energy saving vs. energy spending. As I believe in a world where there are simply things that work and things that don’t. God made us in the way that what works is usually the most energy efficient way. It’s kind of like “the best things in life are free, the second best comes from wal mart”. if you find the best things and focus on those, nothing else matters because the energy payback is so great comparatively. Studying self improvement which going after women does is a reward in itself. Therefore, at the end of the day when you go to + /- stats it is neither the thanks nor blame that you should give to women. You simply get what is coming to you after hard work.

The “P.S sorry for voicing my opinion as a man” is hilarious, yet so sad at the same time.

~AJ

255 Penthesilea February 15, 2013 at 7:08 pm

Bravo! Not to be immodest, but a few years ago when I started grad school, I had a number of men that would casually hit on me at party, text me or wanna “hang out.” There was one gentlemen, however, that after meeting me called on the phone, said he thought I was very pretty and engaging and asked me on a date. Though I wasn’t so sure when I met him, I was very impressed by his confidence. We went to dinner at a hole-in-the-wall Indian restaurant and took a tango class at a community center. That man is now my husband.

256 Nicolas A March 1, 2013 at 6:43 am

This article is so true…
For me its all about commitment…I don’t want it…For now.

And women want to commit. They function differently than men.

Well…There is no escape for this so eventually will have to go for it instead of staying single.

But for now…I need to sort out my next career moves and other stuff…I just cannot let a relationship enter all that. Maybe Im just not a multitasker, especially with a task like that which seems so large and intimidating…

257 Alison Moore Smith March 2, 2013 at 2:06 pm

As a woman happily, thrillingly married for 27+ years, I LOVE this post.

As a mom of four girls and two boys, I say shout it from the rooftops.

Excellent!

258 jake March 4, 2013 at 12:44 pm

@Jay, agreed. You seem to have it all figured out, I must say I am impressed.

259 Stan March 19, 2013 at 12:40 am

I want to make an important comment, one of the points here is to ask in person or over the phone. That’s great and for any given sent of options thats always the best, but DON’T LET THAT BE AN EXCUSE NOT TO ASK HER! That’s even worse.

260 Sebastian March 21, 2013 at 5:08 am

Today’s complicated dating scene is a fact that few would doubt, but to become despondent about the whole thing is (a) unintelligent; and (b) unmanly. One would be a lot better off if one saw it as an opportunity.

Whilst I heartily concur that one should rather date than hang out (because commitment is what separates the men from the boys), one should also bear in mind that there are different strokes for different (women)folks. If she is in her early twenties, chances are she wants to explore, experience new things, and meet new and interesting people. If she is half-a-decade older than that, chances are she is looking for something a little more stable. This is, of course, not a hard-and-fast rule, but the point is to find out what sort of a girl one is dealing with; the choice to hang out could well be a meeting of minds.

On the issue of feminism, we all know by now that it killed chivalry. Even if chivalry is not yet dead, it is certainly on life support. But to give up on it, as a man, would mean living according to someone else’s standards, for once, but also to not see the logic of feminism.

Women, at a basic level, want to be seen as individuals, with their own hopes and dreams, opinions and dreads, choices and consequences (much as men do). They do not want to be perceived as kitchen robots, brood mares or sex kittens. It is really that simple. This basically means that they want to be treated as equals privately and publicly, but (at least for the extreme fembots) romantically, it is a different game.

Yes, she does want her door opened, her chair pulled, the bills paid by yourself mostly (but if she is at all worth her salt, she will offer to contribute – you, of course, will not accept it; for the really adamant ones, let them buy the drinks at a different spot afterwards), to be asked about how her day went, to be complimented, to be whispered sweet little nothings into her ear.

Now, the boys amongst the men will cry fowl to high heaven about how unfair that is. Yes, but my dear laddies: firstly, you as (future) men, should be wise enough to know that this world can only be an approximation of fair; secondly, you will realise, hopefully after you have met the right high-quality specimen, that this is all worth it and that such women have a very highly-attuned fairness radar – they will run basic tabs and, if you are in credit (as you bloody well should be), she will make it up to you in exactly the way you like it.

The stauncher (and, happily, rarer) feminist is actually not difficult to tame and socialise into chivalry – you just have to be consistent; after three months of you relentlessly being a gentleman, she will succumb, it’s just how it goes. You only have to make sure that it does not last for three months, but that it becomes your lifelong commitment to her.

If you promise her a good time, then you’d better bloody be good on your word.

261 storyteller March 21, 2013 at 6:11 am

How is commitment liberating?

262 Brenda March 25, 2013 at 5:08 pm

You are correct about the dating problem men are too afraid of being rejected to ask a women out.

263 Jack March 27, 2013 at 5:11 pm

There is one piece of this I am unsure of. Is there any problem asking someone out over the phone? I found a girl who I like, and I am pretty sure is interested in me as well, but I wussed out when trying to ask her out in person because I couldn’t get her alone. I won’t see her again for a week unless I take her out, but I don’t think it would be wise to wait. Any thoughts?

264 Darragh March 29, 2013 at 11:04 am

I recently got dumped for apparently being too nice, I work out, weight train, martial arts, I do door security in local night clubs and have been known to be “jack the lad” so I decided to be nice to this girl who I liked rather than my usual form treat em mean keep them keen kinda routine and wow did it backfire on me

265 Vin March 31, 2013 at 1:17 pm

Sex is really important to a woman. It’s kind of a mind fck to all of us men that have been raised to respect a woman and to try to appreciate women for who they are, and not to focus on sex as being the first and most important thing in a relationship. I have talked to a few girls and this is the big secret that seems to be big. Its that women see good sex as almost the first, and most important personality trait in a man. To think of this as a personality trait, rather than the action of having sex is a big difference in the perceptions of males and females, when it comes to choosing a partner. When i heard this i thought it was totally fd up. But it explains a lot, at least. Never ever ever tell a girl you love her before you have had sex with her. She will lose all respect for you and move on. Its sad, but true. If you really want to hang on to a girl, show her that you like her alot, go and have a great time together, be confident, and then do her. the first time is imperative. The solitary goal of having sex with a girl you want to fall in love with you, for the first time should be pleasing her, and making her reach orgasm multiple times. This releases Oxytocin in mass amounts in her brain, and probably will cause her to view you as indispensable to her happiness and survival. Then and only then, will she truly love you. I know this sounds fd up, but this is absolutely the #1 thing girls don’t want you to know. Its their way of separating acceptable and unacceptable mates. Its hard wired into their DNA. It took me a long time to learn this and i’m saving you the money, trouble and the heartbreak. Not to say you shouldn’t be a good guy and do the right thing. But this is just one of those necessary evils that i think all men should know about. Let HER say “I love you” first, always.

266 Ronan April 7, 2013 at 7:13 pm

I’m a teenager who has grown up in the social media era. I hate to use use Facebook to initiate anything romantic, but often find it necessary to get the ball rolling. Instead of explicitly asking them out on a date, I arrange to meet up first. I find that relieves allot of pressure for both the girl and myself.

267 Ian April 8, 2013 at 9:47 pm

This is gold; exactly what young adults like myself need to do. MAN UP AND ASK THE DAMN GIRL OUT. WISH ME LUCK GUYS, I’M DOING IT THIS WEEK!

268 T-Rex April 9, 2013 at 5:04 pm

Man, dating isn’t everyone’s cup of tea nowadays. It’s too much hassle and it isn’t really natural these days. I fear that we will never have the kind of relationships our fathers and mothers had. About %60 marriages in the US end up with divorce. This should tell you something at least.

A few decades from now, I see people start dating in a heavily mediated, technologized means — like that scene in Demolition Man, where Sandra Bullock and Sly Stallone tried doing telephatic sex with the aid of a machine. It all starts with something like facebook and twitter. Once you adapt, you become addicted to it. E.g. now we have this ‘sexting’ thing going on.

I don’t want to have sex with a girl on phone or facebook, or date her on Skype. I also don’t want to have sex with a robotic body or any crap like that in future. I want the real thing, the whole good-ol’ fashioned package: the smell, the touch, the heat, the sound —everything.

I also think women’s will power is generally incredibly weak before motherhood (no offense intended, because this is more of an evolutionary thing). If there’s something ready, easy, and set, pre-maternal women seem to just jump onto it. e.g. wealth, comfort, food readiness, technology etc… With the birth of child, this changes a bit. Maternal hormones start changing women inside up. No wonder why some guys will find women with children very attractive. Seeing them in a natural action, men decide whether or not the woman is cut out to mother a child. And vice versa.

Also interesting to note: As of today, the world population continues to increase. Definitely not a positive thing in itself, but it kinda indicates that these whole dating and marriage issues are the problems of workaholic western folks. If you feel stuck and need exotic grooming, well, try another culture where women still are traditional and care for the troubles of their men.

269 Chris Cummins April 11, 2013 at 10:01 am

I remember a lot of women in my single days that loved the idea of being prized enough to be asked on a “true date.”

I don’t buy the feminism argument. Feminism’s core values have been widespread for nearly a half century and to say that men just haven’t been able to keep up is a cop out.

It’s not asking for a whole lot, or a destruction of the dating ritual, for society to decide that women should be valued beyond their ability to provide sexual enjoyment to men, breed their children and raise them for us. If it is, what does that say about men’s ability to act and think maturely.

The problem I see out there is internet porn. Men are being conditioned to a very warped portrayal of sexual relationships or an outright substitute for sexual intimacy in the form of porn.

270 Commentor April 17, 2013 at 10:51 am

Hm… As a girl, I rather like this post ^^ I’m a bit old fashioned as they go, I guess. I really don’t think dating anyone that I haven’t yet properly associated with (a.k.a. a random stranger that I meet at a bar/mall/shop or someone who I’m not friends with) is actually a good idea. Why would I want to consider even the possibility of committing to someone I don’t even know? Would you find a random stranger on the street and ask “hey, you want to get married?” You would at least have a probability of the person answering yes if he/she were a friend.

As for feminism – I really appreciate being equal with guys in some aspects such as capability, responsibility, strength of will and all that, but I still love being treated specially. Most women/girls really like it when a guy treats them not as a bro friend but rather as females. So yes. I love my female qualities. What you might have to pay now to date one of us will definitely pay off if you actually marry the girl and see what she has to go through to raise children and keep house and all that pizazz.

But, main point: I love the post. There should be an “art of womanliness” website

271 Just a guy April 19, 2013 at 3:16 pm

I’ll just drop this off here…

I must admit that reading through the comments shocked me a little bit. I think a lot of people are really missing the point of what dating IS. It isn’t a chance to “score” and it certainly isn’t going to mean an impending relationship (unless you both find that you enjoy the other’s companionship and want more of it).

The point of a date is simply to get a small amount of time to try and get to know a person (or learn more about them if you’ve already been on dates, or catch up with them if its been a while since your last date) Its a small bit of time without the distractions of a group setting to interact with another human being. If you go to a Movie Theater and don’t take the time to discuss the movie, that’s not a date. The key is interaction (discussion, learning, sharing) with the other individual to see if you truly find each other interesting or enjoyable.

If you ask, make it clear that its casual and open to suggestions but be prepared to offer suggestions yourself. Keep it simple and brief. You don’t have to schedule an entire evening. Set the date for an hour over lunch or dinner. (always ask them if they have allergies or there’s a particular thing they DO or DON’T want to eat ***although after the first date you should be sure to remember if they have food allergies***) If things get comfortable, the person with whom you are on a date with will probably be more than willing to either go on another date later or if you both have the time, to extend the current date a few more hours. And if things aren’t going so smoothly then at least you know that its a short date. Many people assume a date is going to take up the better part of an evening but let’s be real, that is really only enjoyable for both parties if they both WANT to spend that much time together. Keep it short and make sure your evening is open in case they do want to extend the date. (AS ALWAYS IF YOU ASKED THEM OUT BE PREPARED WITH MORE SUGGESTIONS BUT BE OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS)

If you ask someone for a small date and they reject it, no harm done. Thank them for their time and walk away proud that you had the guts to ask, you certainly haven’t lost anything for it. And they say yes then quickly discuss a brief plan with a few general suggestions. (i.e. is there a certain place they would really enjoy eating at? is there a certain activity they’ve been wanting to do?) This isn’t Rocket Surgery its just simple interaction. It’s not a commitment (other than that you shouldn’t cancel the date unless absolutely necessary because that is rude). Its not a life-changing event (unless that person turns out to be your soul-mate in which case congratulations). Its just a simple date.

Then, if things are going smoothly over a few dates and you think you would like to attempt a relationship with this person (AN ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP ***NOT AN ATTEMPT AT “SCORING”***) ask them casually if they agree with you. If yes, then “YAY!”, if not, then simply continue with a few more dates if you want to. If you find that the person seems incompatible then politely thank them for all of their time and don’t drag it out. Neither person wants to feel like they have wasted their time.

Finally, to those whom just want to “score”. I’m a guy, I’m straight, Grow Up. There’s more to life than getting laid. If you want to be a productive and inspiring human being you’ll have to learn that. If not then Good Luck out there. Personally, I want to know that my life meant something more than just “spreading my seed.” Besides, once you have your partner then you both can enjoy it as much as you want, AND it will actually mean something more than just a few hours of mindless self-gratification.

272 Serg May 3, 2013 at 6:02 pm

I like the premise of this post, but my read of it is more like “Stop being pussies and express your desires” as opposed to literally asking girls out on dates. Most of your readership under 25 will find that the average girl our age is much more willing to come over for a movie or a drink rather than go out to dinner and a movie. The under 25 crowd has been too conditioned to see the old fashioned dating strategy as boring and formal and something that only committed couples should do. “Dating” in the age of hookup culture is much more relaxed and looks a lot more like “hanging out” than anything else. I don’t see this being any sort of hindrance on getting to know each other and making an emotional as well as physical connection.

The majority of attractive women our age are used to hanging out and hooking up with friends and acquaintances since high school and having more committed relationships naturally develop from that. Plus, I see this casual dating strategy as much more elucidating on certain traits and compatibility useful in the long term. Again, I feel like the idea to “revive dating” is noble but I think, at least the younger readers of AoM, should embrace the new paradigm and adapt. Adapt or die, no?

273 Will May 5, 2013 at 4:47 am

It’s more of a lack of confidence if a man has to work himself out to “prove himself” to a woman. Can he not stand on his own? Never fall into the trap of women trying to get you to do things for them to seek their favor. Be your own man in your own power, and you can be sure that your actions may romanticize some woman to action.

274 dave May 5, 2013 at 10:19 am

I realize that it is illegal to disagree with women and to actually question their intentions, but maybe, just maybe, the “beautiful”,”charming” and “smart” women you described, who want guys to ask them out (instead of them ,oh my gosh,asking men out), are not so beautiful,smart and charming as they think they are.

275 Oldguy May 5, 2013 at 10:27 am

Hi.
The dating game is the best way to go.
Hanging out in groups is fun but that is not who you’re going to tie up with if you plan to eventually start a family. Also, in my opinion people behave differently when in groups than they do when in a one on one situation.
Fear of rejection is what a lot of us males suffer but you have to make your move if you want to attract the girl you have your eye on. Like my mother used to say when I was a young man, “Faint heart never won Fair Lady” and that is true. Also the sooner you attempt a date the better. Otherwise you may begin to fanticize about the girl and mentally build her into something she may not be able to live up to. ( I made that mistake once). If you’re attracted, then do something about it.
I remember the best put down I ever had was when I was attracted to a girl and asked her to dinner. Her reply was that she would have really liked to but unfortunately she had a jealous boyfriend who would object. I looked at her shrugged and said “oh well, I tried”, along with a grin. She grinned back and said “Good for you, no harm in trying” I have also had some nasty put downs. I figured that was good because I found out early enough to not waste my time and money. Then I’ve had where my date was accepted and I was played like a fish for the next few dates, until I wised up and slipped away to lick my wounds.
It was during a period when I eally was not looking for anycommittment that I asked a girl out on a date because I liked her and wanted to get to know her better. There was no expectations on either side. In fact neither of us was looking for nor wanted a relationship. After more enjoyable dates we got to the point that not being together was not as much fun as when we were together. We have now been married 30 years and still dating :-) .
We still go on a date once a week like we did when courting.
This would not have happened had I been a shrinking violet. And the same can be said for her. She accepted even though she was not looking for a committed relationships. She just wanted to get to know me better in a one on one.
And , no we did not have a one-night stand. We did not (nor want to) get intimate for a while.

276 Rob Roy May 6, 2013 at 4:32 am

Something went very wrong but I don’t know what or how.

Everyone is telling me they cannot understand why I don’t date women or haven’t got a girlfriend for 5 years. The fact is I don’t know either.

I have that personal “pool”-theory. Most couples meet within a group, no matter it’s a friendship group, a club or sports group or something else. You don’t meet your future wife on a market or in the subway by a funny joke like comedy shows pretend (there are exceptions of course, but ask around: most couple have known each other a small or long time before). So the “pool” of women I could date is very limited since I’m not attracted to those I’m already knowing (ok, there is one girl, but she’s got a boyfriend already).

Of course I tried to speak to women on the “streets” (e.g. the same woman selling me my buns in the morning) and tried asking her out for a coffee. At first they approves and seem delighted only to let me know a day or a couple of hours before they cannot. It happens all the time. They promise and cancel the date right before. Sometimes with an short message by phone. I mean, what is wrong with those woman? (and I know they just don’t want to and there is no real excuse since they do not propose another time/day or even get back.)

There is one girl I asked twice, different weeks, for cinema. She always replied it’s not that convenient today and we should try it next week. Well, I did try it an she refused me the second time. I don’t ask thrice. I think that she’s just being nice and don’t want to hurt any feelings by saying “I don’t want to go with you to the cinema” not knowing that this is even worse. I don’t like “subtext” or indirect talking. If she would have wanted to go out with me she would have asked (I know men should ask, but how often? I think twice is enough to find out if she’s interessted or not).

And that’s what happens all the time. As I mentioned earlier my male and female friends don’t know why because they say I’m smart, funny and attractive and well-dressed. But it won’t do any good, obviously.

Remembering the time my dad and grandpa told me about it seems it had been easier back then. Being a gentleman, a decent joke every now and than, endurance and a classy dance could make your beloved one your future wife.

Today it seems you’re just a friend or someone not worthy to date by being a gentleman (which tought me my parents all the time, I cannot simply give up on that). Don’t giving up on your crush annoy her and makes you even more unattractive to them. It seems dating gets a more and more complicated GAME.

It is just impossible with women agreeing in the first place and canceling a few hours or days.

277 dave May 7, 2013 at 10:42 am

Mr. Rob Roy – Thanks for posting! It sounds like you are further along than a LOT of guys because you at least make contact with a female once in a while.
I hope that you can make some female friends ( as you had mentioned joining come “coed” group)
so that you can talk to one once in a while, about anything under the sun.
If you view this as an impossible,
complicated “game”, you are not going to want to play. Good luck!

278 Kina May 9, 2013 at 2:44 pm

To those of you who say you keep asking girls and getting rejected, or to anyone with autism or anything else socially damaging, I would just like to say “keep trying, don’t give up”. I understand how stupid that sounds but if you think about it, the odds are the more girls you ask the more likely it is that someone will say yes. Because there are billions of people in this world, there really is someone for everyone, you might just have to look a little harder than other people, so try not to let the rejection bother you.

279 Marky May 9, 2013 at 5:44 pm

I don’t distrust women, I don’t fear rejection, I don’t fear women, I’m just happy single. I don’t need a partner to make my life complete and I’m not any less of a man because I have no interest in having kids.

280 Emily May 13, 2013 at 12:42 pm

I love this website, and I love this article.

281 George May 15, 2013 at 12:36 pm

Completely wrong Vin. The key to dating, and to know whether or not there IS a relationship, something special, and the signal for marriage, is when there are all the things working, without sex and sex in the way of things. That’s how you see if you have love, a real relationship and a future together aka marriage.

282 Ben_1982 May 18, 2013 at 2:38 pm

’4: men today are wussies’ : Guys no you’re not. You’re awesome. The insanely enormous/unfeasible criteria the modern woman has of what the ‘perfect man’ should be today is not your fault. Remember that.

283 Tom May 20, 2013 at 5:23 pm

I would agree that there are many differences in post-modern society that simply weren’t part of the equation in years past. However, as the mere existence of this website suggests, that is no excuse for failing to be a man. Feminism relative to equality in the workplace has it’s place and like non-discrimination in any other capacity is rightfully placed. With that in mind I would humbly suggest that it is important for both men and women to learn where to stop being politically correct and develop some social graces. Patrick pointed this out earlier and raised a very good talking point. The following is a simple collection of points based on casual observation. Please feel free to disagree (everyone has an opinion) but there is no need to be rude.
First: Ladies & Gentlemen, behave as such. There is simply no excuse for:
1. Poor hygiene
2. Poor manners
3. Poor vocabulary
Social gracefulness starts with you! You don’t have to wear a pressed suit and dine at a five star restaurant, but take the time to make yourself presentable. See Do’s and Don’ts below:
DO: “Prepare!” You are taking the time to meet someone outside of work. At least take the time to value theirs and hold them equal to how you would prepare to attend your performance review with your supervisors.
Don’t: “Be Lazy.” Gentlemen: ball caps, cargo shorts, and t-shirts can stay home. If you expect your date to look nice, take time to reciprocate. Ladies: Little slutty outfits are great for the bedroom and if you’re just looking to hook up at a club. They do not, repeat DO NOT foster an environment for a gentleman to respect you!!! You will get plenty of attention, but in a very negative way. Basically, if you’re content to behave like a sex object, we are content to treat you as such. Additionally think of your date with a question in mind; “is this someone whom I would consider allowing meeting my family?” Granted, that may be somewhat forward for a first date, but the idea here is to have some standard by which you accept or disapprove of social behavior.
Second: Work on yourself first!
Gentlemen, if you look in the mirror and see a boyish wimp staring back at you make an effort to build confidence. Sports are a great way to do this. The bottom line is that it forces you to interact in some way socially in a face to face setting. Granted you don’t intend to date your football coach but having a mentor to offer both constructive criticism and praise, when appropriate builds character and self-esteem.
Don’t make this out to be more than what it is. The fate of the world (or even your life for that matter) does not rest on whether or not she says, “yes.” If she says “no,” so what? You think this is hard, try dealing with an angry boss in your corporate job. If you intend to climb the ladder, you must first muster confidence and self esteem. People gravitate towards positivity!!!!
Ladies, if you look in the mirror and see a snobbish b*itch staring back at you, try broadening your horizons and approaching things in life (and men) with a more open mind. No one is asking you to change your life on a first date and not every guy is just another douche bag who only wants to ‘sail & bail.’ All we’re asking is the pleasure of your company for a few hours. So, be willing to gracefully take a compliment (even if you didn’t ASK for him to open your door) and command his attention by making him feel comfortable. Gentlemen, the same warning applies to you. Be the center of her attention by listening to her and not wasting her time by looking around aimlessly at whatever entertains your eye.
The main point to take here is that you should craft yourself into someone with whom you would like to accompany to an occasion. The bottom line is that if you wouldn’t date yourself, how can you expect that anyone else will?

Third: Be a pleasurable individual by fostering a pleasurable environment.
We all have enough problems to deal with in our daily lives. Don’t make them a topic of conversation unless your objective is to bore your date into oblivion. Save that crap for your therapist; you have to pay them to listen to your bullsh*t.

Lastly: Don’t take anything personally. If this is a first date chances are you don’t know each other very well in the first place. Otherwise you wouldn’t be attempting this endeavor for the specific purpose of “getting to know someone.” That doesn’t mean be cold, heartless jerk but be able to take “no” for an answer and accept that there’s always another chance elsewhere. Think of how many times you have been turned down for a job. That didn’t stop you from trying until you found this one did it?
As a side note to taking things personally; don’t wear your heart on your sleeves either. Again, I’m not saying be some heartless jerk but no one needs to know your life story and all your emotional reactions in life in 20 minutes. Part of building confidence and projecting manliness through strength is having it. If one were to take a look through history and observe chivalrous customs of the past they would see that many practices revolved around protecting a woman rather than entertaining her (ex: walking on the sidewalk in such a manner as to place yourself between her and traffic). Overly emotional “sensitive” guys are easily mistaken for wimps, and wimps wouldn’t have the spine to protect her from anything. Remember we are primal creatures. Analytical skills aside, our instincts tend to gravitate towards these principles. Thus the old adage parallel to the doctrine of this blog holds true, “MAN UP!”

284 Deer May 23, 2013 at 2:20 pm

It is possible to have an egalitarian relationship that involves both dating AND hanging out, where you can take turns paying for things and alternate casual social time with romantic one-on-one time.

My man and I met at school and “hung out” in a friend group at first. We liked each other, got quite close, learned some serious stuff about one another, to the point of us trusting each other enough to have sex. We went on “dates” only after that. Yes, at first he did a lot of the more chivalrous things (bought me flowers, paid for dinner, opened doors) but only at the very beginning were those things more exclusive to him. At this point we have been together long enough to take turns, share, and communicate about when we want what.
I’m an independent feminist-type woman and I think a lot of the emphasis we put on gender roles damages the crap out of how we see each other. Of course I love it when my man makes me feel cared for and special, but I want to make him feel that way too! I don’t want someone who is going to feel emasculated if I pay for dinner or get him a gift – this shouldn’t be a one-sided thing, and if he cares for me and buys things and such, I want to be able to show that I care for him and can buy things right back. I want the mutualness of that. I want to be able to pay for dinner when he’s short on cash without him putting himself in the hole by INSISTING on paying for a meal; I want to be able to buy him flowers and presents sometimes too. I love it when he holds the door for me or carries some heavy groceries, but that doesn’t mean he has to do it every day, every time.
A lot of the above comments are pretty much just showing that individuals want and benefit from different things. The best thing you can probably do is be open about your expectations. It has been the best thing in my relationship from the start.

I can’t tell you how often my female friends have turned down offers to go out for coffee or lunch with guys who were probably just “trying to get to know them,” because they were afraid the guy was expecting more, and that by accepting they would be entering into some unspoken contract where they had to have sex with someone they didn’t know that well in exchange for him buying them coffee. Asking girls out is all good; remember that a lot of rejection on the part of women comes not from total lack of interest, but from fear that saying “yes” means putting themselves in a situation they don’t want to be in, and can’t get out of without being called a “frigid bitch” or something.
It seems like a lot of people would benefit from just being a little more up-front about what they expect from the other person or about where their boundaries lie.

285 Davis Nguyen June 10, 2013 at 4:15 pm

Men today are really afraid of rejection.

286 Caelynn June 10, 2013 at 4:34 pm

This awesome. I love this post. But, can someone please post something about friendzone. I have this guy friend who’s I friendzoned. When I did this I didn’t even know friendzone was a thing. I was afraid of the feelings I had for him and now 4 years later, we’re still talking and we’ve both dated others. He’s the closest friend I’ve ever had. Any help would be appreciated.

287 Tyler June 18, 2013 at 12:47 pm

A tip for avoiding the dreaded (and somewhat made-up) friendzone: make your intentions clear. We always complain that women always leave “obvious” hints and never tell us what they want; why do we want to reciprocate that? After you finally get up the courage to ask her out, don’t screw it up my asking if she wants to “hang out sometime.” Trust me, it doesn’t work that way.

If you want to go on a date, actually use the word “date” when you ask her. Everyone will be on the same page, and you’re less likely to be overlooked.

@Caelynn: if you still have feelings for him, why don’t you just ask him out? This goes along with my point above. If you let him know how you feel about it, then you both know what’s going on, and you can go from there. I know it’s easier said than done, but if you don’t do it, there will always be that what-if.

288 johny June 19, 2013 at 10:16 am

My advice to men is BE BOLD and ask for the date…Just say to a woman, after you find her attractive….Hey what if we go for a coffee on Saturaday at ,,,,I wanna get to know you better. And then leave it to her to respond – she may take her time (a week or even a month). If she is worth it , then its definitely worth to wait.

289 Jen June 19, 2013 at 8:33 pm

If I get to do the asking out, I can ask exactly who I please if they’d like to go on a date. If I wait for a guy to ask me out, it’s often the wrong one. I’ve also noticed that while women sometimes get skeezed out by a guy asking them out, guys are most commonly very flattered (even if they don’t say yes.) Ask ‘em out, ladies!

290 Jagon June 20, 2013 at 10:44 am

Great article and comments – very interesting to see that people are all the same really.
We all want love. No one like rejection. And the more you want THAT person, the harder it is..

Friendzone = is for life, move on

291 Nicky June 29, 2013 at 5:49 pm

Here’s my problem. I saw this woman in a store (she works there) and I thought that she was really attractive and I wanted to ask her out. My question is, how? I am a complete and total stranger. Wouldn’t she find it kind of creepy that someone she didn’t know came up to her to ask her out on a date? Since I don’t know anything about her how would I even ask her out? It’s not like I can bother her at her job all of the time so that I can get to know her. I was talking to someone about this and they told me to go up to her and tell her that I don’t know how to ask her out. By saying that to her everything would be out in the open. Another problem is age. I’m terrible with age so for all I know she’s a lot younger than me even though some women don’t mind dating men older than them. Advice from the dating veterans would be greatly appreciated. I’ve only had two relationships in my life and I was set up with those two women. I didn’t have to ask them out. Somebody played matchmaker in other words.

292 Dillion June 30, 2013 at 12:25 pm

How many rejections should one expect (in a row) before their confidence is completely shattered?

293 Jonathan July 3, 2013 at 3:05 pm

“If you’re over 18 and you’re still using Facebook applications to let someone know you’re interested in them, you need to be punched in the face.” So well said.

294 Anonymous Lady July 4, 2013 at 2:39 am

I appreciate this post so much!

Many women are different and have different preferences, but here are my reflections from my own life and that of my friends:

Men, please ask. I could do it. But I want to see that you have the confidence, the leadership, the strength to ask me. That’s attractive. Confidence is attractive! As a woman, I need to know that you can take my strength. Being forward and asking me out shows me that you’re willing to take my rejection: a sign of strength. I know it’s hard! But that brings me to my next thought:

Please don’t take rejection that hard. I qualify that by saying that a lot of women don’t know how to let a man down gently. Some women are brutal. But just because I don’t want to date you doesn’t mean I think any less of you. I might like you very much! I might respect you and your dignity very highly. I am not rejecting you as a person. I am simply saying that I don’t want to get to know you romantically, and that shouldn’t have to be insulting. It’s just a fact – we’re all attracted to people who aren’t attracted to us once in awhile. It’s a bummer, but it’s life. To quote, “Failure is necessary. We try, we fail, we learn, we adjust.” Move on to the next girl and don’t let it jolt your security. So the two of you are looking for different things in a mate. That’s ok.

Men, women need your strength. (Some women aren’t going to like that very much! Ha!) But we do. I’m an educated professional woman, a strong thinker. But I have no desire to walk over a man! I want him to lead me, to pursue me, to be a firm and solid resting place. I want to be able to push against his strength with my own and know that I won’t push him over. That way, we make a strong team. You will do far more damage in the long run by being passive in your relationships, gentlemen. Lead me. Lead us. Take initiative. Be good men.

In other words, and I say this from the heart, I want to be with a man I respect. Rest assured that I also want to do my part. I have every notion of being kind and sweet and encouraging – perhaps natural reactions to respect and adoration. But wouldn’t you men rather that? Wouldn’t you rather the challenge and the success that had to be fought for? Was something easy really worth having? So take heart. It’s rough out there, but that makes finding the girl and winning her over that much more of a victory. I have every belief in you.

295 FayFay July 4, 2013 at 7:54 am

I’ve just read a book that suggests there are two types of each sex: masculine and feminine men and women. Whether you are male or female, if you are the masculine energy partner you do the asking.

I’m a “feminine woman”, and the few times I’ve explored modernity enough to ask guys out I have always been rejected. It never made sense to me since I’m quite a catch ;)

Now I know it’s because “masculine” energy men like to do the asking.

Everyone deals with rejection. It’s hard. But if you don’t want to ask girls out, and you wait to be asked out, you are going to end up with the kind of girl who calls all the shots.

296 James July 7, 2013 at 6:14 am

There are two things which need to happen for more dating to occur:

Firstly, men have to get over their fear of rejection and ask out the women they’re interested in.

Secondly, women have to help out the guys by signalling their interest. It is very, very hard for a man to make a move when a woman is hiding her interest in a guy, or worse, playing hard to get.

297 Chris July 15, 2013 at 4:23 pm

Nicky,
when I read your post an old Bing Crosby (not Bill Cosby!) song instantly came to mind…Million Dollar Baby. It was #2 on the Billboard Chart in 1931.
“It was a lucky April shower
It was the most convenient door
I found a million dollar baby
In a five and ten cent store.
The rain continued for an hour.
I hung around for three or four.
Around a million dollar baby
In a five and ten cent store.

She was selling china
And when she made those eyes,
I kept buying china
Until the crowd got wise.”

Simpler times,yes, but maybe you should start buying china.

If not sure of her age maybe send a trusted friend,relative (female might be better) to check her out. Depending on what she sells (lingerie could be awkward) make excuses to buy things or ask advice. Don’t be too forward or she may feel you are creeping on her (a real danger to woman working with the public). Just be friendly and see what develops.
My husband once had a crush on a girl working the “House of Knives” kiosk in the mall. When she seemed pestered he thought it prudent to let it go! Good thing too,because he met me…thirty years ago. Still happy together.
Good Luck!

298 Pete July 17, 2013 at 10:16 pm

Good article, with great points. Here is something it doesn’t address, and quite frankly, is the biggest problem I have when asking a girl out: how do you do it?

Seems like a simple question, but its quite complicated. These days, I feel like walking up to a girl you’ve never met and asking her out makes you a creep. I can never find the right words. That’s probably my biggest obstacle

299 Car July 22, 2013 at 5:23 am

I would like to ask why some men keep talking about the good old days when women didn’t work and could iron and cook. Are these the skills men required from a woman to qualify for a date? (I didn’t say marriage, ‘cause guys if she’s the one and you are the one for her, she will learn how to cook, iron etc. to make you happy)
Also, what’s up with the negative tone about feminist? The feminists’ movement is the result of women being treated unfairly and not as equals. So men why not ask yourself “how does feminism benefit me?” and give yourself 3 reasons. (If you can’t think of 3 reasons equality for women benefits you, good luck with women dude)
I think men and women want to be respected and adored and if there is a sense of “one up” (who is or isn’t gonna get over on me, from the man or the woman) well it’s “let the games begin” and someone is gonna loose.
May I suggest when you see someone you are attracted to say hello, then something pleasant or interesting and casually with confidence invite that person on a date. (Note, you need to have a few dates in your “date portfolio” that you are confident and or experienced in, that you can afford with complaining about the cost)
Now, if she says “no”, accept that and say okay. Then let it go, do not take it personal it doesn’t mater why she said no.
Lastly if you keep meeting these awful women ask yourself, why aren’t the dream dates attracted to you? Make yourself the man your dream woman wants to date, so you can stop wasting your time on the wrong ones.
… and I read and appreciate all of the post

300 Kevin July 24, 2013 at 9:45 am

Feminism is not the same as equal rights and equal opportunities. Not even close.

We can support equal rights and still resent the damage that modern feminism has done to society in turning women into men and men into little girls. It denies any difference between the genders, not comprehending that things can be different and still equal in value.

Men and women have a symbiotic relationship, this is part of our evolution, the total is greater than the sum of our parts. Feminism weakens and devalues the family, which is the strength of our whole society.

I support men being gentlemen and chivalrous, and part of this is that we honor and respect women. This is in no way oppressive or limiting, but instead is appreciating them for all they are and all they do.

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